Analysis of Entekosiad Mythic Cycles
Some of them are excerpts of the translation from TI's Japanese Note,
and Kevin McDonald's Note for House of Rhugandy
This Note is for Most Hard Core Gloranthaphiles and based upon Greg Stafford's
"Work in Progress" Material, so called "Entekosiad"
Green Page Edition six or seven years ago (1996, June), but he didn't say
anything about completion level of this book in the preface, unlike of
other "Pelorian Trilogy" book. So be careful, there is always
possibility that Greg's latest statement: "Sorry, that page no longer
exists." (AAGHHH.: Terra Incognita 2003)
I think I can call Entekosiad as most mysterious (unintelligible?) book
of Greg Stafford who demonstrated his shamanic character. (Sometimes, he
actually doesn't know /remember what he intended to, I think)
Mythology of Provaria and Wendaria, Pelanda are all different IMHO for its influential area, age and people. Later it was split more into Oroninela, Pelanda, Bisosae, Jernotia, etc.....
Kendesos (Cities of Sorcerers)
Red City of Naveria
Vakthan Ilart & Blood Kings Houses
Late Lunar (HonEel and Arronius Jaranthir)
Varied Mysticism of Glorantha
Prophets of Pelanda
Cities of Pelanda and Carmania before Lunars
The Life of Carmanos
<<Maybe you can see a good source four your idea in Entekosiad p.96, for Valare Addi, born in the suburb of DH, couldn't read pelandan ideograms that of another famous center of pelorian culture. And she seems that she pushed her analysis to the mindset of another culture.(TI) >>
<<The book "The Time Falling Bodies Take to Light: Mythology, Sexuality, and the Origins of Culture" by William Irwin Thompson is in many ways a useful guide to the Entekosiad, since it deals with mythology of the Neolithic. (If I recall correctly, Greg recommended the book to me before he released Entekosiad, though I didn't read it until afterwards.) (David Dunham)>>
ANALYSIS OF ENTEKOSIAD
Here I begin to collect everyone's idea to the Capital Enigma in Greg's Entekosiad, page by page. I know mythology can be, and should be analyzed differently by each person on the contrary of objectivistic History by Malkioni Point of View for Material World. And this area is also the place of the crushing of Sorcery and Mysticism, Light and Darkness. (Kevin McDonald?) So please teach me if I can omit or miss your important opinions about the Travel and Journey of Valare.(TI)
<<Hrm. This sounds like a tall order ... (Julian Lord)>>
I agree, but I think I can find some new facts from your (Digesters) various perspectives from this different opening.....
I already have Kevin's excellent Entekosiad annotation: http://kpmcdona.home.mindspring.com/carmania/cults/mythlist.html
I want your more valiant, subconscious and reckless impression for it....(TI)
Life of Valare: she is from the suburb of Vonlath, Estekoi, p.97
p.26-30 Great Dance
p.31 Three Errors
p.38 Daxdarius (and his Evil)
p.63 Darkness and Resurrection
MENTION OF LUNAR GODDESSES (or Valare thinks it should be done.)
p.14 Atarks = Rashorana? (Nick Brooke's Site)
p.37 Princess Cerulia
p.41 JagaNatha = Dara Happan Natha?
p.44-45 Jernotia = Moon Goddess
p.64 BeThaNa = Natha
p.73-76 Orogeria, See Orogeria Myth in Issaries GTA archive
p.104-105 Gerra and her pyramid of Dezarpovo
There is no concrete concept of Time and Space in Gods Age. IMHO. (TI)
<<Yes there is. The Mother of Space is a pre-Blue Age pre-creation entity of the hypothetic (non-existant) Black Age.
Space existed before Time, in the Pure Runic Age before the elements crashed together/flowed into each other.
Time is a result of that cosmic event.
The fact that the remnants of pre-Dawn events are not now sequentially organised, as relative to each other, into a chronological unity does not mean that no forms of Time existed prior to Arachne Solara's engendering of Solara Tempora.
It is in fact a logical necessity that they did. (Julian Lord)>>
See below about my opinion toward the diversity of Glorantha in "Three Errors" (TI).
Vol 9 #392
<<My thinking is that the Pelandans believed in seven different creation stories, one for each High God. Some of the other six creation stories might be read elsewhere in the Entekosiad (Uleria p4, Dendara p9, Turos p44 and Oria p46. Jernotius's myth might be on p44 with Kagardu as a mask of GanEstoro, while Bentus was probably dead drunk). That these creation myths partially contradict each other is no big deal to the Pelandans for they know that "All is Change, All is Balance".>> (Peter Metcalph)
<<I think the Mythology of Three Goddesses FaElsor and the Serpent can be read from several perspectives. First, it is similar to three goddesses of Esrolia. (Ernalda, Voria and Asrelia, or (Argan Argar, Ziola and Zoran....))
Second, the Serpent can be taken as a sensual (sexual) impulse in their virginity (in fact, Peter seems to link it to the Dara Happan Concept of Berneel Arashagern), later it was related to Golden Dragon and Youf....(TI),
Third, as mascline entities didn't appear many as VogMaradan and Ursturburn, maybe animistic deneroni didn't know anything enough about before the contact from other side. (TI) Robin Laws induced strict worldview of Four World Directions to Glorantha by HW rules, maybe third perspective should be postscript of this note for Entekosiad was written before the rule......(TI)>>
Vol 9 #392
<<More important is how the Pelandans would understand the division between sorcery and god magic? I think following the example of Jernotius, the Pelandans divide the otherworld into Male Space (the sorcerous planes) and Female Space (the God World). Everything else (Hero Planes, Spirit World, Underworld) is mixed. (Peter Metcalph)>>
See below about the confusion of Pelandan Magical Cosmology
<<This ternary structure is IMO indicative of the birth of Time from the Duality of pre-Blue Age Space.
One = Existence
Two = Space/Relativity
Three = Time/History
The Crone/Mother/Virgin triaty signifies, among other things, the passage of Time. (Julian Lord)>>
p.2 (No, she is not Agripina Minor!) (TI)
p.4 GlorOranor = Glorantha (TI) Creation Myth of UlEria (Peter Metcalph)
<<Only through sensual (spritual?) orgasm, you can be reintegrated into the One?>>
p.7 Deneroni Animistic Feminine Spirits Tree?
<<Deneroni Tree = tradition was discribed as an Animistic Tradition in HW 1st Edition. Maybe its center is located to bit east than Wendarian (Five Mountains) and Pelandan Area. >>
But in Imperial Lunar Handbook-1 p.47, Deneronae are called Goddesses, not spirits.....(May / 2003 TI, Wait release of Hero Quest....)
Five Deneronae Goddesses
Addi (Staff / Speaker)
Addi = Entekos
Beseda = Oria
FaElsor = Dendara
BenBeng = Naveria
Alk = Orogeria>>
Ten Goddesses are important for the mindset of this book concept, as Valare took the goddess's name Valare and found it in her quest, see p. 30, 98. And maybe you want to compare the Addi (p.30 picture) and Erson, or Ersoon, masclinity stick, (erson)moda, p.29, 56.
p.9 Creation Myth of Dendara (Peter Metcalph) Maybe Eight Pointed Tent means the Planet Sons of Yelm in Dara Happan Mythology, Dendara and Yelm lived inside of their circle. (TI)
1. Children of AronBaka (Tree People)
2. Estardavi (Dara Happans: See "Glorious ReAscent of Yelm")
3. Hinnae (FaElsor Children)
5. Suvarians (See Enclosure #1 "Weeders" by Greg Stafford)
p.14 Theistic Point of View of Creation Myth for Wendaria (Mountain People) (TI) Atarks = Moon Goddess Incarnate (Nick Brooke?) <<IMO, this myth was written from Men's perspective.(TI)>>
p.16 See below about the Turos =Lodril, Derdromus =GanEstoro, etc...(TI)
p.17 and p.45, perfectly same role was taken by different names......(TI)
But I cannot agree with Valare as she saw Derdromus as GanEstoro. (TI)
p.18 Pelorian Underworld
p.20 Generation Tree of ArroTurru = Wendarian Original People (Theistic Entities?) (TI)
I can't suppose the profound meaning of the mythology of ArroTurru except as a history of native of Wendaria (as Old Testament...) before How the Men Got Useful (Green Age) ....(See Gloranthan Vision) and three errors (p.31-37),
it indicates that Sorcery, trickster, Storm and Sun as villains as a representative of vileness of men....(TI)
<<The genealogy tree of AroTurru also have their own set of Creation Myth through water and fire. (Wendaria)
And certainly the Volcano god and his descendant hints the image of sensual repulse and action. Later it was crystalllized to High God Worship to Turos and Oria. (TI)>>
Good of Feminism (Life, Innocense, Family) to Evil of Masclinism (Pride, War, Alienness)
See primitiveness of Green Age....? it is similar to RW "development" from prehistoric to bronze age......from primitiveness to civilization as RW....
p.21 First Appearance of VioVanus (Later, Idovanus?)
<<It's understandable for Viovanus to become Idovanus as there's a big difference between the Wendarians and the Pelandans. But the change from one of the High Gods to sole Creator in just two generations is implausible. At the same time Gartemirus is said to rule with the advice and power of the Seven High Gods (Peter Metcalph)>>
p.22 New Dance: Compare this myth with p.36, Myth of Second Error, same events, different consequence. (TI)
p.26-30 Great Dance, maybe you want to compare this ritual with the dark ritual of Dezarpovo, Gerra's Pyramid.
For Valare travelled to Green Age (there is no indivisuality) while Dezarpovo and Hagu linked to Great Darkness for spiritual enlightenment. (p.102-105)
See above about the difference between Addi and Ersoon.
Is there Choreographer (VanoIti) link to Carmanian Influence? (TI) Darsen is not Pelanda.
p.31-37 Three Errors
First Error (Green Age), Second Error (Storm Age), Third Error (Darkness) (TI)
<<I believe that the Three Errors all occurred towards the end of the Green Age.
I am not sure it has been noted, but I can confirm that the stories about the end of the Green Age in the Entekosiad are from two sources, one from the Men's Tribe and the other from the Women's Tribe. (Greg Stafford)>>
<<IMHO, his anouncement about this condition promoted subjectism of Glorantha, for Heortling knows that Death was first induced by Trickster Eurmal in the end of Golden Age....(TI)>>
p.31-32 First Error (Pride): Enemies
p.33-35 Second Error (War): As Peter suggested, this mythology might be originally Naverian one as similar situation can be found in GROY p.28, Emperor Urvairinus (=Brightface?) Deed(Such mythological perspective isn't prefered by some gloranthaphiles, I know.)
<<The first war of Urvairinus is against the pre-Naverians and is told from the other side in the myth War is Invented (Entekosiad p34). There the Lord of Seven is known as Protector of Seven and is not a king but brother to Queen DerOrios. That circumstances of that conflict (establishment of the patriarchy) is not the same as the reasons why the Ram People were fought (and even the Dara Happans recognize those battles as separate).(Peter Metcalph)>>
See p.92 about another origin of City Culture of Peloria [Naveria]....before Yelm.
Maybe it hints that there is no specific period of "Golden Age" in Pelandan Chronology. (TI)
p. 36 Third Error (Alienation): See also New Dance, same event, different result. (p.22)
If there is no specific period as so called "Golden Age" in Pelanda.....?
<<I think Three Errors are caused by Gods, and Lunars believe mortality can fix the error of Divinities and it relates to their creed.(Malion Tadaaki Kakegawa)>>
City Culture began from Logicians (Minions of YarGan?) of Kendesos? (Objection: Dara Happa (or Naveria) is more earlier than that?) See above about Second Error. See below about the opinions of Kevin and Peter for Gartemirus and Daxdarius. (p.38) See p.49 against Blue Folk.
p.40 See the similarity with Dara Happan Urvairinus cycle.
p.41 JagaNatha: It reminds me of Classic Greek Tragedy for Atreides House....[Not Dune!](TI)
p.42 Old Wendarian Heritage....Weakened Turos status let me recall some of Babylonian and Egyptian Myth...Malduk and Ra. The additinal twins (Daxdarius and JagaNatha) were later removed by Lendarsh. [Nick Brooke?: Tales #16]
p.44 Creation Myth of Turos (Peter Metcalph)
VisaruDaran = DidalaDalan already appeared former pages p.16, as you can find similar myth in Anaxial Roster as Lodril Myth, maybe VisaruDaran is a materialistic body of Turos (he was called "son") (TI) See p.17 and p.45, perfectly same role was taken by different names......(TI) Even after Mt. Fire was crashed.
p.44 Five Wendarian Mountains: Chinese Legendary Sacred Five Mountains
1 Jalardo (North): Tarakolos (Brass) Mountains, later, it became the place of refugees from Mount Fire Traditionalists? [p. 51,52]
2 Kagaran (East): As known as Jernalf Hills or Mt. Jernotius where Seven Cliffs of High Gods can be found, center of Mountain Mystics.
3 Gestinus (South): Middle of Yolp Mountain, later, Darjiinians and Trolls occupied this mountains.
4 Dobur, Dabur (West): Later became the center of Bisosae? [E p.78]
p.44 Kagardu = Mask of GanEstoro (Peter Metcalph) ViSaruDaran = DiDalaDaran? (p.51)
p.44 This myth of Jernotia and Kagardu reminds me a mythology of Real World Shiva and Demon Asuras......
p.45 Ersoon, see Note 2 and please compare it with Addi (TI).
p.46 Creation Myth of Oria (Peter Metcalph) Read about Turos and Mythic Resonance with Dara Happan similar God, Lodril. (p.89)
p.47 About Oria, maybe Real World Greek Myth, Persephone and Demeter are helpful for you.
p.47 Idomon and Gartemirus, Ekus was born from Oria's blood, very concrete similarity of Gilgamesh and Enkidu. (p.59)
Julian's opinion about Pelandan Myth (Unified Mythology):
<<To begin with, the Pelandan High Gods are Defiant entities, existing in a sub-transcendental plane where those divisions simply do not exist. This plane (1) is coeval but not identical to "the" Green Age. A major difference is that the Pelandan High Gods can be worshipped, although in most cases the magical methods of that worship will be fragmented between sorcery, animism, and theism.
It is also possible, indeed likely, that, **historically**, Pelandan cults could have crystallised into schemes where each individual High God is **perceived** by Pelandans as either an essence, a god, or a spirit. Not to mention any mysticism possibilities. Nevertheless, their Defiant nature was not destroyed by the Gods War.
If so, and as I believe, there are lower entities having the same name and the same cults as the High Gods, except that these are Forms (not Aspects) of those Gods. Similar to the fact that there is a High "Natha" and a Natha Aspect in Sedenyic philosophy. The Pelandan High Gods transcend the divisions between the otherworlds in exactly the same way as Sedenya does.
A quibble : they are not "mixed", although I suppose that mixed magical entities can generally exist. Demons, mostly.
Mixed entities do not have the same degree of connection to the transcendental that defiant ones have, because they were created *after* the cosmic destruction of God Time.
I think the Pelandans see the Inner World, Hero Plane(s) and Underworlds as mixed, but definitely not the Spirit World (which is pure).
It is because the High Gods are sub-transcendental that their cosmogony differs from religions that were born in the conflagrations of the Gods War. The division into a Male Space and a Female one existed prior to that War, but did not constitute any form of universal destruction because the two Spaces were One inside the Ulerian Veil (later torn into shreds, and becoming her Net). The other High Gods had/have their own specific powers to provide cosmic unity.>>
<<I think some of Gloranthan sets of philosophy agree with you, but some of them don't, like logicians or Brithini who deny the mystical perspective of Jernotia. (Maybe such conflict was perceived and retold in the mythology, as Battle of Sorcerer King and Jernotius. (p. 54 and 58))
Pelandan High gods might be later developments which people who want to explain their "primeval" mindset before sophistic philosophy to their children.
Especially about Entekosiad, I found some of anti-mythological perspective that became dominant in the mindset of rigid Four Worlds System that was developed by HW 1st. For Ent was written before the rule. (TI)>>
See below about the War against YarGan Arganum.
p.48 Chronology of Mt. Fire....
ViSaruDalan -Turos (Earth Fire) - Listor - Oronin - YarGan and Erstoro - Lendarsh (Kalikos) .....
p.49 Orininela About Destruction of Fire Mt. (TI)
See Issaries Site for Point of View from Westerners, Peter Metcalph's writing for Mabakarisarro (Sweet Sea).
Ladaral versus Waertagi....see "Book of Belintar", maybe there is mystical resonance or synchronicity....
<<Are they Waertagi that came west to destroy Ladral?>>
<<Right again. I once thought Fire Mountain was Mount Ladral but Revealed Mythologies put an end to that idea. The destruction of Fire Mountain seems like a kind of "echo" of the Mount Ladral destruction, though. I don't see why the Waertagi of the Neliomi Sea, which covered most of Fronela at the time (including the Sweet Sea itself), couldn't have been involved in both events.>>
<< Ladaral is further west beneath the Neliomi Sea.>>
<<Right again. I once thought Fire Mountain was Mount Ladral but Revealed Mythologies put an end to that idea. The destruction of Fire Mountain seems like a kind of "echo" of the Mount Ladral destruction, though. I don't see why the Waertagi of the Neliomi Sea, which covered most of Fronela at the time (including the Sweet Sea itself), couldn't have been involved in both events. >>
|COLUMN OF DIFFERENT MYSTICISM
Why there is no Great Darkness in Vithela?
Only through Good Poetry and Story, we can reach the truth...?
<<Greg Stafford: So many people has different perspective and opinion about mysticism.....>>
Here is some example....for the diverse impression to the term "Mysticism".......
TI: Chinese Taoism (about Kralori)
Nick Brooke: Greek Philosophy (about Lunar)
Greg Stafford: Patanjali and Sensual Analogy of Hinduistic Yogism (at least, about Vithelans)
Efendi: Sufism (Dancing Mystics) (Arkati)
Peter Metcalph: Vehgerichmt? (Secret Court of German Empire http://www.bartleby.com/65/ve/Vehmgeri.html)(Arkati)
Later Jernotian Creed was connected and developed as Lunar Creed....
p.50 "One of them was sacrificed and given to the Storm Gods as a
slave." = Heler? Other Synchronicity?
<<I think there is a rivalry between Blue People of Lake Oronin and Demonic Sorcerers of YarGan....Yargan killed King Oronin and robbed his adamant crown and sovereignty....in Ent, p. 53. And his blood poisoned and fishs vanished from the lake, until Carmanos recovered it. [IIRC, Tales #16]
I wrote it long ago... (TI)>>
THE BLUE KING'S CITY OF TORMENT (KENDESOS?)
I can find most interesting (and most difficult to grasp) pieces are found in the Battle between YarGan and various his enemies, (YarGan's Enemies: Urvairinus (=?) Daxdarius, Bisos, Idomon (Jernotius)).....
Maybe I can divide various opinions to three point of views, Theistic, Sorcerous and Mystical......as YarGan was Patron of Sorcerers and counted as an inventer of urbanized society sin.....see above about the difference between TI and Julian Lord (TI):
HW 1st Edition Narrator's Book
Collision of Different Other Sides
Narrator's Book p.114
"This plainly indicates the collision of the Spirit World and God Plane to start the process of creating Glorantha" (Green Age)
Narrator's Book p.116
"[God Plane] at this time the first extensive contacts with the sorcery peoples are indicated" (Golden Age)
I assume collision of YarGan and other more "primitive" entities indicates above the crash of several different other sides and there might be time-lag of the three as the note above indicates, (but I also assume that there is no specific period of Golden Age in Pelandan Mythology....(TI)) And this debate continues to Spolites versus Carmanians and Lunars and Bull Shahs....
(YarGan and Oronin Mythology firmly linked with the Life of Prophet Carmanos, as he made perfectly new set of Philosophy, read about Discussion of Peter Metcalph and Kevin McDonald, below)
Nick Brooke's Answer about the Battle against YarGan:
<<This was actually argued about by Davids Cake & Dunham and me for input into DD Wendarian campaign before an answer was given by Greg.
Basically the solution is that there are four zones of Blue People influence and Daxdarius, Urvairinus and Bisos got rid of the Blue People from three of them. The Bisosae remember Bisos defeating IvinZoraRu of the Shoreline of the Sweet Sea, The Dara Happans remember YarGan's defeat at the hands of Urvairinus (near lake Listor?) whereas the Pelandans remember The Big Dax defeating the Blue People.
The chronological pattern is more complex but since we don't know how Daxdarius defeated the Blue People or whether he was before or after Urvairinus (This is an area of major scholarly debate within the Lunar Empire FWIW). I do think the Lunars are unlikely to resolve this because Plentonius has mixed up the order of several emperors.(Nick Brooke)>>
See Entekosiad, p.50. IMHO [Kevin] struck a good point when he distinguished blue people of Oronin from those of Sweet Sea. I think YarGan sorcerers oppressed original blue people into slavery, as they did in Lesser Darkness, as Spolite did to people of Pelanda.... (TI)>>
[Modern Bindle people: historically independent to main culture of Pelanda.]
YarGan's people thrived in Oronin Lake and after that, he was banished to Freshwater Sea...(TI)
p.51 About the Battle of Water and Fire...see Belintar's Book again and think about Glorantha......
p.51-52 Brass Mountain, see next page p.52, it means original AroTurru was almost all destroyed except in the valley of the mountain in historical age, even if you can find them.
p.52 First Mention of Estoro, later GanEstoro in Hunter Tales of Arir (p.75-76), more later, it was the Dark Father of Spol and Enemy of Carmanos. ...it seems that King of Kendesos, YarGan also seems to expose his patron's intention (Erstoro, later, GanEstoro IMHO) by similar method. (TI) See below about Turos of Osthens
p.53 Logicians: See First Error p.33
p.53 There is a rivalry between Blue People of Lake Oronin and Demonic Sorcerers of YarGan....Yargan killed King Oronin and robbed his adamant crown and sovereignty....And his blood poisoned and fishs vanished from the lake, until Carmanos recovered it. (TI) See below about Kevin's analysis about Life of Carmanos (Sorry, it was on the process of Editing...)
p.53 Kagardu head image: Jeneran Logostolos: See p.44-5
p.53 About Hermaphrodite Jernotia (us)...I recall some Greek myth about Tiresias and Orpheus...late Hellenism Culture. Think about the relationship with other similar existence, Androgeus Jesarma! (TI)
<<I thought he was Shadow's Good Shadow (KoS p37)? But there's some more information about him and her children in Wyrms Footprints p83 (which also includes one "Goldtooth"!) although I personally suspect this is archaic fiction by Greg.
Actually the Pelorians blame her on the Belling Hell whereas the Natha, the Goddess of the Second Hell (according to the GRAY), is associated with bells. So he's an incarnation of Natha according to them.
But she has multiple origins (renegade star captain, dwarf reject etc) and so I think he's more than just the incarnation
of Natha.(Peter Metcalph)>>
p.54 and p.58 Logical Sorcery and Jernotian Mysticism?
p.54 See also Bentus' son: Trickster? (p.49)
p.55 On the contrary of Vulgar Worship to the Father Mountain, the worship to Turos reached to Greek Apollonian Harmony? (Or Julian might illustrate this period religious arts of Pelanda prosperity.) See the picture.
p.55 Uleria, Lovers of the city Ulawar (later it was the center of Gartemirus) and Utheneos (later the place where Lendarsh first landed: p. 87, as one city of Naveria), it might hint that this unity came to antagonistic power against Highland Daxdarians of Peldre.....(TI)
Romance of Idomon, a son of Turos and Jernotia, and Delderia, a daughter of Urenes and Turuka
p.56 About Ersoon, see p.45 note 2. Idomon's origins were written in p.47 and 55. He is the First Prophet of Pelanda, Greg hinted that the image of Mt. Jernotius is Mt. Fuji of Japan....but my image is apparently Greek Olympian...
p.56 Aspects of Turos the Great
ChekTuros: Alafulos (Protector of Lover, E)
DedaddiTuros: Balovius (Great Tree Trunk), Rafelios (Small Staff, E)
HerraTuros: Othens (Shaker, Seer of Brendarbus Fall, E)
KetTuros: Kendesos (City Founder, E, ILH-1, p.39)
RomanakrinTuros: Brinnus? (Good God?=Idovanus, Enclosure Last Page)
UirTuros: Utheneos (Phallus God, ILH-1, p.37)
EMPIRE OF GARTEMIRUS
See below about Cities of Pelanda and Carmania.
See also Garthum the Wise [FS p.96, Unity List]
p.59 About the best friend of Gartemirus, Esus, see p. 47, he was the son of Oria and Turos. See aso p.81, maybe as Enkido, he sacrificed his life to save his best friend....against the Bull.....(TI)
p.60 See the debate of Jerome Blondel and Peter Metcalph about the battle and similarity to the muster of Dara Happan Army in Glorantha Digest Archive.
Gartemirus and Ekus Wild Main Legend
<<Peter Metcalph: My evidence for the migration of the Hyalorings into Saird
stems from the Entekosiad. There Gartemirus leads a host to help Emperor
Eskarlavus to defeat the Rikestings (ie Bird People probably related to
Emperor Kestinoros). Eskarlavus has apparently performed the "Muster
of Murharzarm". From the other three quarters, Gartemirus sees a naked
man bearing only sticks and stones (Zarkos), a man with a javelin and frog
protection (Suvaria) and a man upon a horse. Gartemirus is surprised at
the Man with a Horse. We know that a Manon a Bird would be expected, but
since the foe is the Rikestings, Erskanlavus has changed the rites. It
can be inferred that the Hyalorings are not in Saird at this time or else
Gartemirus would have heard about it - he is not suprised by the appearance
of the Zarkosite for instance. >>
Kevin McDonald's opinion about Daxdarius and Gartemirus
<<My impression is that Daxdarius was the military overlord of the middle and lower (northern) Oronin Valley immediately following the overthrow of the Blues. At first, the cities around Lake Oronin were separate, since they were liberated by Bisos.
After the Andam invasion the Bisosae cities became part of the "Empire of Daxdarius". I believe that this "empire" was very loose in structure and military in nature - i.e. The cities pretty much ruled themselves while paying respect (and tribute?) to Peldre for military protection and organization for defense.
As time passed, the peaceful and beneficial influence of Ulawar (which
is not listed as a Daxdarian city) and Utheneos (where Idomon the Prophet
settled) expanded and gradually displaced Peldre. Therefore, by the time
of Wise King Gartemirus, Daxdarius (or his heir) was reduced to the status
of hill-top warlord on the fringe of the High King's lands.
Was that hill-top warlord the same hero that liberated the Oronin Valley? I don't see why not! Long lived or immortal heroes are not unheard of in Glorantha - especially before the Dawn. Gartemirus was a grandson of Idomon the Prophet, who lived during the fall of the Blues. The length of the reign of his father, King Turenus the Roadbuilder of Ulawar, is not mentioned so it could have been short. Gartemirus himself did not become High King until he was of middle age. I feel that this makes it plausible that Daxdarius was still mortal during the the early reign of Gartemirus.
Daxdarius might have been quite old when he achieved his apotheosis, or he might have been younger and acted against Gartemirus through intermediaries after his ascension of Mt Jernotia. My personal favorite is for him to have lived a long life, personally contesting with a young Gartemirius, followed by the ascension of Mt Jernitius when life on the mortal plane no longer gave satisfaction (the Peace of the Wise King would not have been a War God's paradise). >>
Peter's Objection about Daxdarius:
<<Not necessarily. Daxdarius left behind a large body of followers that could be understood in mythology as being Daxdarius himself. In this way, Daxdarius can oppose Gartemirus even though the two lived in different periods.>>
DARKNESS IN PELANDA
See Eledre p. 99
OTHER NEIGHBOR MYTHOLOGIES
See also Andrew Behan's site and Mark Galeotti's Article about Durnvok City in Fanzine "Moon Rites".
Both Goddess Esus and Naveria have their origin to Pelandan Area in Mythology, this indicates something, I think.
p.71 Goddess FerNa = Dara Happan Goddess Ourania? (Peter Metcalph)
Hunter and Huntress Tale
See Issaries Site old Article (now only GTA members available, Ulurda & Ulurdum)
p. 73 Louvre Museum: Artemis, sorry, Orogeria caught Deer.....
p. 75 See p. 10 about kidnapping of Innocence.
p. 76 About correspondence of Mythic Cycles of Lunar, I should point out the mention of Etyries as another example of Lunar Egi.
Sorry, I don't have speculated Bisosae Cycles yet....(TI, April 2003)
Relation with other Bull Worship...like Urox?
Kevin's opinion about Bisosae
<<The Bisosae were originally a Tawari people from Vanstal (part of which is now under the Ban) who liberated the proto-cities around Lake Oronin after the Flood. IMO, these settlements were populated by Pelandans who had lived around Fire Mountain before the Flood. When Fire Mountain became Lake Oronin, they became a downtrodden underclass ruled by the Blues/Logicians/YarGan. Bisos liberated them, saved them from starvation, and remained there with his followers (as rulers?) until the Bleak Period.
When the Andam invasion was repulsed by Daxdarius, the "cities" around Lake Oronin became part of his empire. Eventually the martial Empire of Daxdarius gave way to the harmonious realm of Wise King Gartemirus, who "tamed Bisos to the plow". There is a "Return of the High Gods" myth that speaks of a "LevBentus" in Mintinus, so I am guessing that at least Mintinus had a significant Pelandan flavor at that time.
During the Bleak Period most of the Bisosae migrated back to Vanstal, where they seized power. When the Bleak Period was over, they returned to Lake Oronin and were forcibly brought under the rule of the Lendarshi. The map of "Lendarshic Pelanda" in the Entekosiad [p88] listed Mintinus as one of the "Five Cities of Bisos and Esus", so once again we have Bisosae living there. So...
I think we have three types of "Bisosae". We have the semi-Pelandan Bisosae of the Lake Oronin city-states, We have the rough-and-ready hill barbarian Bisosae of the Worian hills (referenced in ILH-1), and the softer lowland Bisosae of Vanstal. In Vanstal, there might be Pelandan influences from their Bleak Period domination by the Lake Oronin Bisosae, and other possible civilizing influences from their northern cousins - the Sweet Sea Kereusi. >>
See below about "Bull Stops Here Battle" and Peter Metcalph's opinion about Lenshi and Lendarshi (TI).
<<Another interesting fragment can be found in Bisosae cycle, like Bisos, kidnapped Esus from her home like Zeus did Europa.....and brought her an isle of Mabakarisarro.... "Bull stops here battle" was mentioned some of Greg's fragments but didn't talk much..... Though Greg mainly used the Greek image to many Pelandan mythologies, that might be similar to the situation of RW greek mythology adopted many oriental mythology like Attis (Adonis)....and transformed it into own image.... (TI)>>
p.81 Golden Bull of Tawenos....see Babylonian Myth Cycle about Ishtar's Sky Bull and two heroes, Glgamesh and Enkidu.
p.82 Sir Gawain and Green Knight? = YarGan and Bisos the Bull. Typical Mythology about Earth Fertility "Death brings Life." But I think Bisos' attitude to UpelviDedi is opposite to Carmanian attitude toward so -called Minion of Lie and Fatawa (False Gods)
See below about Kevin's opinion about Bisosae:
<<The Bisosae might have seen Carmanos as leading a Blue revival. >>
p.83 Geographic Cataclysm: Creation of White Sea [TR & E], Tork between Jord and Imther [E & Harald Smith's Writing?], maybe as several explanations about the Explosion of Spike [Orlanthi & Zzabur, etc....]
p.84 Burning Scourge, before Chaos Army ate the Burneledos (modern Tork?), the Imther Mountain and Jord was one, and not divided in Darkness. (Peter Metcalph)
<<Lendarsh is another hero whose ancestor came from East, as Greg's Website mythology (it was not in Entekosiad) suggests, Lenshi and Lendarshi came from around Elf Sea and / or Pent through Esvuthil.... Martin Laurie pointed out the usefulness of trade for nomad and pastoralist lifeline...(TI).>>
Peter Metcalph's reply to Andrew Behan:
<<A bit of a clarification is needed. When Dara Happans (not the Pelandans) give the geneaologies of barbarians, they are really talking about something else, IMO. Have a look at Plentonius's (Glorious ReAscent) statement that Jenarong was the Son of Hirenmador, who was the Son of Targos, who was the Son of Kuranits, who was the Son of "Starlight Wanderer". Then take a look at the map. What is being described here is a movement of _tribes_. The Hirenmador split of from the Targos to occupy the lands further south etc. It was in this spirit that I interpreted 'Bisos is the Son of Kereus'. Thus the people who worshipped Bisos, were actually Kereusi to begin with. Since 'Kereus is the son of Naveria', this means that the Kereusi came from Naveria.
I must confess I forgot about the Unity List reference. It seems that some of the Kereusi came into contact with the Tawar and adopted the worship of a Bull Demigod namely Bisos, son of Keftavar (Here I think the parentage is exact). They then became known as the Bisosi.>>
See Issaries Official Site for Greg's Lenshi Kings:
p.86 Hyalorians and other Kargzanti came to Peloria in Grey Age.
p.87 About Utheneos of Naveria, see p.55 as old Pelandan City.
p.87 Bull Stops here Battle. (Horse Rider versus Bull People: Peter Metcalph)
<<The "Bull Stops Here" battle is a victory of the Lenshi horseriders over bullriders. Hence it occurs during the Darkness. (Peter Metcalph)>>
See below about Kevin's Analysis for the mythological resonance for Bisos, Carmanos and later, Bull Shahs and Lunars.
<<On the other hand, they were friendly with the Tawari bull folk and Carmanos used the rite of Bisos to unseat the unjust emperor, who was the Blue King in Pelandan myth. Again, I think the Jernotian Way (All is Change, All is Balance) is at work there.>>
<<Peter Metcalph wrote some about Greg's fragments and treated it to expand his theory about Horse Nomads (while ago when he talked about the article with Jerome Blondel) And see above about "Bull stops Here Battle" if you see Carmanos as a Successor of Lendarsh and so-called Jernotian Cycle of Balance and Harmony, (I think that is the main theme of Entekosiad, that Greek tranquility of Arts derived from tolerance to every foreign cultures and adopts it to their own- on the contrary of Dara Happan Patriarchial Conquests, as Lunar "upstarts" began to use it as their own....)
While if you assume this mythology of Bastard Horse Nomads (Before Gongarilli Reform [KOS]) is a merely indication of Pelorian History and crush of Different Cultures, it is not so important for the scheme as Kevin's. The problem is, Pelanda and Carmania is too complicated for illustrate and sketch with one hands for so many writers conspire to write about this place, so many groups and cultures. IMHO.(TI)>>
<<I haven't read ILH-1 yet (April 2003)....both Peter and Kevin seem
to be twisted by Greg's fickle nature....by overtoning and attaching one
source and slighting on another source by their own preference (IMHO)....Kevin
attaching to Entekosiad (but IMHO he slights influence of Lendarshi and
Spolite), while Peter care much about more older source like Nick's history
and Greg's theological article (but IMHO he slights Kevin's attachment
to Entekosiad / Bisosae cycle and Carmanos doctrine). But mythological
event itself should be explained from several different views....
About Entekosiad, I can divide it into several pieces for it is not for one culture, but several people and different ages, like Wendaria (Mt Fire) =Oroninela (Oronin), Pelanda (Jernotius), Naveria, Bisosae, Lendarshi (Nomad?), Carmania etc....and Valare doesn't intend to unify them as Plentonius in GROY, for her principle to Lunar creed. (TI)>>
Vantestos: Red Emperor's Three Horned Crown (Peter Metcalph)
p.92-94 Oedipus and Iocaste? (But I don't know why Vantestos needed to die for returning to Mt. Jernalf.....)
p.89 Bull (Life Energy?) and Mithras, sorry, Carmanos. See above about
p.89 Ten High Gods? General Zeridexus, if Daxdarius was renewed as Eleventh High Gods, how about other Ten? (Ancient Seven + JagaNatha? Maybe Bisos and Eses?)
Spolite Kings and Queens [FS p.96-97] Ziggurat of Spolites?
p. 90 Agadelos the Dark Prophet
p. 90 Spolite Kings of Fortunate Succession: from the scribe of Emperor Sarenesh, their pantheon includes Goddess Oktaki, GanEstoro, Derdromus, various Trollish deities and their dark ancestors.
See this Page, "The Life of Carmanos"
Successors of Bisosae, they usurped the Throne of Carmanos. (Before them, only the heirs of Carmanos have succeeded.)
p.91 Purush = Shah-tavar. Mention of the "Revenge of Bull Stops Here" Battle. (Lendarshi = Pelandan = Lion Shahs)
Nick' Opinion about Bull Shahs:
<<Yep, there's an Urox connection: Uroxi are bull worshippers, after all. The Talor link would be that Talor slew the Tarjinian Bull: remember that many Carmanian beast/mystery cults focus on slaying the animal and consuming its power/nature/essence, rather than keeping it in the prime of health. So Talor slaying the T.B. and Syranthir and Carmanos slaying various Spolite rulers (who also employed Bulls) would become quasi-Mithraic statues. There is a link with Tawars: the Ten Thousand came from Loskalm, and brought a whole bunch of attitudes with them. (Yes, Tawars was at the Dawning a bull hsunchen homeland, certain to have had troops in Syranthir's army).
To my mind, these are "normal" cattle bulls: big Minoan-like ones you could leap over. Not bison here, though I'm a great fan of Pelorian water-bison in other contexts. But let's not start another Moose Debate.
But I have to take (minor) issue with your description of the Bull Shahs as "anti-social" and "freakish." Writing them, I wanted to create a Gloranthan analogue to the Assyrians: a culture geared for war which didn't give two hoots about atrocities in the name of Empire. I have a lovely book of Assyrian historical inscriptions on the shelf behind me, and if time permits I'll send a typical example out (so readers will get the hang of the Bull Shahs' style). The Bull Shahs were self-consciously "strong" and "terrible" in order to project the fear and submission that kept their empire together. They weren't giggling loons or chaos-tainted monsters: they were normal human beings, and quite scary enough, thank you very much.>>
See the Attitude of Bull Shah Carmanians in the LARP "The Birth of the Goddess".
VAKTHAN ILART AND BLOOD KINGS HOUSES
Keith Nellist's Writing about Yanafal Tarnils and Humakt
<<Yanafal used the "Rite of Bisos and the Blue God" to defeat Humakt, with himself in the role of Bisos, and Humakt as the Blue God. Note that Bisos defeated IvinZoraRu (YarGan) by being killed but coming back to life, presumably with the support of his people who confronted IvinZoraRu "without fear or anger". Yanafal defeats Humakt by being resurrected, this is also presumably, with the support of his "people"; the Lunars, who could be viewd as his new, healed family. (Carmanos used the same rite; "the Dethronement of the Unjust" to depose the Spolites.)>>
His Blood King's War:
LATE LUNAR (ARRONIUS JARANTHIR AND HON-EEL)
(Only for Hero Quest-RPG mailing list member.)
COLUMN: Prophets of Oronin Valley and Pelanda (from Japanese Note)
Cities of Pelanda
(p.95-96 <<Maybe Bijib (Greg's Lenshi King fragment) = Bijiif (Dara Happan one Chip of Yelm's six parts....) (Peter Metcalph)>>)
<<Add Daak, Ratakar, Veskerele, Vogestes, Urvangar, Elijiyah, Fronalako, Malakinus, Estrekor, Komos, Survilster, Perkek and Worrigari (Friendly Rivals), Urenes and Turuka (Lovers of Ulera), Jeneran Logostolos to Pelandan Prosopaedia for adopting Imperial Lunar Hundbook idea.....?).>>
Addi and Ersoon & Ersonmoda (Sun) Brightface
Kevin McDonald: Pelandan and Bisosae Culture
Peter Metcalph: Lenshi and Lendarshi
Nick Brooke: Carmanian Empire
Keith Nellist: Blood Kings War
Godlearners (Sophist? Lie Fronalako) versus Estrekor Teaching about Iresavel (Socrates? Truth Herodotos' so-called virtue of Persians)
Zoroaster -> Carmanos
Sorcery: Estrekor, Spolite Sorcerers? (YarGan Logicians?)
Theism: Bull Stops Here Battle(Lenshi versus Bisosae), King Oronin's Adamant Crown, Killing Brass Lion and bringing Stone Tablet from Tarakolos (Brass) Mountains.
Mysticism: Son of Lake Oronin (Goddess Charmain), Jernotian Seven High Gods ->Magi of Idovanus against Lie of GanEstoto
Pelandan Mythology Cycle
First Error: Pride
Second Error: War
Third Error: Alienation
Kendesos (Cities of Sorcerers)
Red City of Naveria
Vakthan Ilart & Blood Kings Houses
Late Lunar (HonEel and Arronius Jaranthir)
Varied Mysticism of Glorantha
Prophets of Pelanda
Cities of Pelanda and Carmania before Lunars
Return to Carmanian History Note
Return to English Glorantha Mainpage