LIFE OF CARMANOS
(link to the Pelandan Prophets Column)
Purple: Reverend Magus Peter Metcalph of Brinnus' Statement
Blue: Reverend Magus Kevin McDonald of Brinnus' Statement
Green: Other Quotations from Various Posters (Especially, Nick Brooke and
Keith Nellist)
There is already Nick Brooke's Work, the one of the creators of Carmanian
Tradition wrote some about the "Greatest Prophet" (from the point
of view of un-Lunarized Carmanians), some of them know that Carmanos was
not only the Founder of their Culture and Ancestral Way, but the Example
of True Life that enbodies the struggle against the Lies of the GanEstoro,
and Heroic King with several legendary deeds.
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/carmanos.htm
<< Born 733, Accession Age 750, Transcended Mortality in Mother's Castle?
787 (Not Chariot of Fire Wheel? (TI))>>
But it seems that Peter Metcalph and Kevin McDonald thinks that there isn't enough mention about him and Pelandan and Western Tradition he inherited and succeeded into new form. (And they have different idea for Carmanos' role: Political (Kevin) or Spiritual? (Peter?))
Peter: Main Opponent (Spolite & Godlearners), Spiritual Leader, Mythological
POV
Kevin: Main Opponent (Spolite & Bisosae), Political Leader, Chronological
POV
Kevin's saying:
<<I am usually to focused on figuring out what "really happened"
and not focused enough on figuring out what different groups *believe*
happened. >> (Natural attitude as a gamer and Narrator (TI))
Keith's Carmanos Oration:
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1811.html
<<This was some background colour that I used in my Carmanian game:
"His Majesty, the Shah following the Hierophant as religious authority.
commanded all those scattered teachings to be brought to the court. The
Hierophant set about his task, selected one version, excluded others from
his canon, and issued this decree: "The interpretation of all the
teachings from the Religion of the Worshippers of the Gods is our responsibility;
for now there is no lack of certain Knowledge concerning them. That which
is False is determined as a Lie and that which is True stands in the Light
of Idovanus."
"The Shah of Shahs, Karmanos, son of Syranthir, summoned men from all lands to examine and study all doctrines, so that all cause for dispute might be removed. After the Hierophant had been vindicated by the consistency of his arguments against all the other representatives of the different sects, doctrines and schools, he issued a declaration to the following effect: " Now that we have seen the True Religion we shall leave no one to his False Religion and we shall be exceedingly zealous." And so did he do." >>
Some of his deeds that might have to be added to Nick's History are:
*Estrekor taught Carmanos the Lie of Godlearners (Fronalakino) and the
Truth of Irensavel.
*Carmanos got the Adamant Crown of Oronin.
*Carmanos defeated the Bull of Energy and Life, as well as he killed the
Brass Lion of Valor and Heart of Justice.
*Carmanos communed with Idomon, Old Prophets and Idovanus = Irensavel, High Gods of Jernotius.
*Carmanos apotheosized in Castle Blue?
Pelandan and Carmanian Mysticism Note
*Estrekor taught Carmanos the Lie of Godlearners (Fronalakino) and the Truth of Irensavel.
It seems that he somehow learned the western heritage through monastery of Estrkor (See Fanzine Enclosure #1) Godlearners (Sophist? Lie Fronalako) versus Estrekor Teaching about Iresavel (Socrates? Truth Herodotos' so-called virtue of Persians)(TI)
Magus Peter's reply to Magus Kevin:
<<Actually Estrekor, a magician that came westward with Syranthir. If by
Fronelan thought, [Kevin] meant sorcerous concepts in general then the
Pelandans have knowledge of that since the Storm Age. >>
Magus Kevin's reply:
<<Nah, I meant Estrekor's Romanakrin "One Mind" teachings. >>
Magus Kevin's opinion [Carmanos the God Child]:
<<I am assuming that Carmanos did not meet Estrekor until *after* Carmanos
revealed the Truth of Idovanus. Because of this, I was assuming that he
received Estrakor's teachings second-hand via Syranthir.
On the other hand, Greg's article in Enclosure #1 says "Romanakrin Wisdom was incorporated by the Prophet Karmanos into his revolutionary dualistic religion." Did this happen after he presented the Book of Two at Brinnus? Was his dualistic faith developed over his lifetime as First Shah? Was Carmanos somehow watching or communicating with Estrekor magically from Castle Blue? Or did Carmanos leave Castle Blue to wander Pelanda for some time before showing up in Brinnus with the Book of Two? >>
Magus Peter's opinion [Carmanos the Philosopher?]:
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1819.html
<<Estrekor came west with Syranthir and would have been well known at Brinnus where he established a monastery and hospital there. Since the Redline history says about Castle Blue
[The inhabitants of this castle were typical of the type, and were very
close to the inhabitants along the shores of the lake. Castle Blue considered
those people among their own followers, and had always defended them from
external aggression. Even the Carmanians had respected the holding of Castle
Blue. ]
http://www.glorantha.com/library/history/hle-0wane.html#castle-blue
I don't see why Carmanos couldn't have taken shore leave when he was younger
to meet Estrekor. As a mortal, I think he would have lived in the mundane
portion of the Castle rather than have tea every day with Charmain, Syranthir
and Alakoring. >>
*Carmanos got the Adamant Crown of Oronin.
<<I think there is a rivalry between Blue People of Lake Oronin and
Demonic Sorcerers of YarGan....Yargan killed King Oronin and robbed his
adamant crown and sovereignty....in Ent, p. 53. And his blood poisoned
and fishs vanished from the lake, until Carmanos recovered it. [IIRC, Tales
#16] (TI)>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<Were they South Oredanarans - former Wendarians who married with the Blues
of the Sweet Sea? Are they pure Blues who came from the Sweet Sea during
the Flood? Are they Waertagi that came west to destroy Ladral? Are they
a type of Blue Wizard (Logician)? A mix of any or all of the above? In
essence, I am wondering how much of the West was present in Castle Blue.
For that matter, how did Carmanos come to investigate Idovanus there? The
immortals of Castle Blue don't seem to have much connection with the High
Gods, at least on the surface. Its a mystery. >>
Peter Metcalph:
<<The Entekosiad (p51) has the DediOronin - said to be humans imitating their
conquerors with blue paint and evil ways but that's only the surfacers
rather than the people within that you were asking about. Oronin himself
is said to be royal (Entekosiad p53) when YarGan takes his crown from him.
So it seems that there's two types of blue people there - the Oroninae, the conquerers of fire mountain and the YarGanites - the servants of the evil god. >>
<<I feel some oversimplisation here.....because we don't know well
about YarGan's supporter group except from his enemies. The blue people
of Lake Oronin who burned Meglardinth was called Veth Esidisi in Fortunate
Succession and Tales #16. (TI)>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<That makes sense - The YarGanite/Logician rule is sometimes confused with
the Blues because the they served YarGan after being conquered. The Blues
conquered Pelanda in the Flood, YarGan usurped power from the old Blue
King and appointed a puppet, and Bisos deposed the Blue Puppet and then
defeated YarGan - transforming him into "The Bounty of All Mankind"
- although I don't precisely know what is meant by that.>>
(My Note....(TI))
Kevin McDonald:
<<Were they South Oredanarans - former Wendarians who married with the Blues
of the Sweet Sea? >>
Peter Metcalph:
<<The descendents of the south Oredanarans are the people of Bindle.>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<Yep, but that doesn't mean that the people of Bindle constitute *all* the
South Oredanarians. I am assuming that the Blue invasion was composed both
of aquatic Blues from under the Sweet Sea and their (mostly) human relatives. >>
Kevin McDonald:
<<In essence, I am wondering how much of the West was present in Castle Blue.
For that matter, how did Carmanos come to investigate Idovanus there?>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<The immortals of Castle Blue don't seem to have much connection with the
High Gods, at least on the surface. Its a mystery. >>
Magus Peter's opinion:
<<Syranthir investigated Castle Blue because of the legends of the Blue King
I'd thought. Since Yargan's crown is the immortal crown of Oronin (said
in Elder Secrets to be Adamant), a quest for kingship over the surrounding
lands rather than a prophetic retreat is indicated. >>
Magus Kevin's opinion [Chronolgical Mythologist]:
<<I was suggesting Carmanos took the "prophetic retreat", not his
father. I agree that Syranthir was seeking sovereignty using the Blue King
myths when he quested to Castle Blue. After all, Castle Blue was prominent
and much more involved with the shore folk in those days - it was the obvious
place to go if you wanted to acquire the holy mantle of rule. >>
More Magus Kevin:
<<although I don't know that YarGan still had the crown after being defeated
by Bisos. You are correct in that the trials of Carmanos should be depicted
as moral and spiritual more than an epic adventure full of daring-do.
As for the Adamant Crown of Oronin - did YarGan really have it? Bisos defeated him, so I had assumed the crown to be lost. One idea would be that Syranthir recovered the crown to marry Charmain only to discover that being the Blue King wasn't as great as it was in the old days. This might be why he was not able to depart the island. Carmanos would have inherited his fathers regal position but instead went in another direction... >>
Last Kevin's opinion about Castle Blue?
<<Based on [Peter's opinion], I would say that Syranthir went to Castle Blue
more out of desperation than ambition. He needed Charmain's blessing just
to keep his people together, hope alive, and his authority intact. The
dream of becoming King of the Oronin Valley would seem pretty hopeless
when faced with the smothering Gloom - Charmain or no Charmain. >>
(See Nick Brooke's mention about Old Debate of David Dunham and David Cake, and leave this matter on each Narrator's choice might be the answer of Nick Brooke and Greg Stafford: IMHO, TI)
*Carmanos defeated the Bull of Energy and Life, as well as he killed the
Brass Lion of Valor and Heart of Justice.
(I simply assumed that Greg wanted to insert the famous sculpture Mithras
defeats Bull of Life in his book...(TI))
Magus Kevin's opinion [Carmanos the Conqueror of Bisos and the Preacher]:
(YarGan was once defeated by Bisos, chronologically, who Carmanos defeated?
Bisos. I agree with the theistic level that Carmanos defeated the Bull,
Ent p. 89 (TI))
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1777.html
<<The Bisosae were less impressed [with Carmanos' Deed], and summoned their
god to resist [Carmanos]. I can certainly see why. The Bisosae defeated
the Blues around Lake Oronin at the end of the Flood period, and subjugated/transformed
their divine leader. The Bisosae might have seen Carmanos as leading a
Blue revival. The Bisosae might also have been growing unhappy with the
Ten Thousand camping out around the city, and were just looking for any
excuse to rebel. Or perhaps they saw the balance of power shifting from
a partnership to the Ten Thousand being in control. Whatever the reason
for the rebellion, Bisos was defeated, brought into the fold as a Good
God, and Vanstal (a neighboring Tawari/Bisosae land) established as a Carmanain
protectorate. Then the liberation of Southern Pelanda began.
So... I could see a case being made for the Bisosae not being early or enthusiastic converts. On the other hand, I think once Bisos was established as a Good God in the Carmanian Religion they would have good reason to get on board - not just as allies but as converts. For one, it allowed them to be in on the "ground floor" of the new order. For another, it allowed them to have a greater role in liberating their kinsmen around Lake Oronin. For a third, it allowed them to get revenge on their Spolite oppressors. In fast water, you have more control of your fate going with the current rather than fighting the river.>>
More Magus Kevin:
<<With the coming of Carmanos the defense of Brinnus became a war to liberate
the Bisosae area around Lake Oronin, and later still a war of conquest
against Spol. As the war of liberation was waged, the Carmanian faith would
have provided a unifying principle that gave strength to the Prophet's
people.
As the war continued, particularly after the apotheosis of Carmanos, the Carmanians began to loose their missionary zeal and became conquering overlords. Thus, IMHO the cities around Lake Oronin were liberated more than conquered, while the northern (more Spolite) cities were conquered rather than liberated. This is the reason that I believe the Bisosae around Lake Oronin practice a Carmanian version of the Bisos cult and should be considered fully Carmanian.>>
(Mythologically and Synchronisticlly, Carmanos defeats YarGan, as Bisos
once summoned YarGan and defeated him. Please see also my note. Or they
were exploited by Spolites. But Greg seems not to talk much about
the Empire of Gloom. (TI) )
Magus Peter's objection [Carmanos the Caste Founder]:
<<I don't think [Carmanos'] position as Shah carried anything close to the
absolute political power that his successors enjoyed. Rather it was more
like a Pope, somebody which the powers pay great deference to publicly
even if they disagree with you. His successors used their position to accumulate
political power to transform the Shahdom into an all-powerful monarchy.(See below the context of Peter's (TI))>>
*Carmanos communed with Idomon, Old Prophets and Idovanus = Irensavel, High Gods of Jernotius.
Magus Peter Metcalph talking about Seven High Gods and Carmanos:
<<The High Gods are Pelandan rather than Carmanian. Although there are many
linkages between the two mythologies, there is much that separates them.
>>
Magus Kevin's Opinion about Carmanian Faith:
<<Yes - but the Carmanian faith didn't appear out of a void. Carmanos (and
subsequent prophets) were the ones to reveal the points of unity and separation
between the older faiths, and also reveal some very important things that
were completely new. This process was more than synthesis, as you rightly
observed. It was the revelation of the divine Truth beyond both religions.
I don't think dualism would be all that revolutionary in the Jernotian
Land of Balance. As you say (below) - the Truth and the Lie were the revolution. >>
Magus Kevin's teaching about Carmanos and Idovanus [Pelandan Carmanos]:
<< In [Carmanos'] searching, the answer he found was the Pelandan god Idovanus, one of the High Gods. He completed hideously dangerous quests involving both the Sorcerery and God planes, and reached the ultimate Truth behind each faith - the Carmanian Religion was born. At last he had found a way to bring East and West together in one faith, just has his mother and father brought East and West together by conceiving Carmanos. This might have taken quite some time.>>
Magus Kevin's Opinion about Carmanos Preaching:
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1777.html
<<In the beginning the only "Carmanian" was Carmanos, who could
be seen as a later day Idomon - reinterpreting the old Pelandan religion
with new truths and blending it with the Irensavel teachings from Fronela.
Carmanos then converted members of his own immediate circle (family, followers,
supporters, etc). Then the religion spread out among the heterogeneous
Ten Thousand and the (mostly Bisosae) citizens of Brinnus. With the coming
of Carmanos the defense of Brinnus became a war to liberate the Bisosae
area around Lake Oronin, and later still a war of conquest against Spol.
As the war of liberation was waged, the Carmanian faith would have provided
a unifying principle that gave strength to the Prophet's people.
As the war continued, particularly after the apotheosis of Carmanos, the Carmanians began to loose their missionary zeal and became conquering overlords. Thus, IMHO the cities around Lake Oronin were liberated more than conquered, while the northern (more Spolite) cities were conquered rather than liberated. This is the reason that I believe the Bisosae around Lake Oronin practice a Carmanian version of the Bisos cult and should be considered fully Carmanian. >>
Magus Peter's objection:
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1780.html
<<While [Carmanos] people subjugated the Pelandan Cities and had a vested
interest in keeping distance between themselves and their conquered subjects.
Just because [Carmanos] made friends and mythic connections with the Bisosae does not mean that he converted them to his religion. The two could have merely had a profitable relationship in much the same way as the Sikhs did with their British overlords after the Indian Mutiny. >>
*Carmanos apotheosized in Castle Blue?
(or over the Chariot of Flaming Wheels? Elijah?: TI's image)
<<Please see Enclosure fanzine last page, Iresaval Heresy appeared
from the antagonism against Godlearners Makan (IMHO, it is similar to greco-romanish
Gnosticism rather than Zoroaster's creed), and Carmanos shifted the rather
doctrinal dualistic theology into Zoroastanish practical doctrine for fighting
against Spolite Empire, chose Light for fighting against the Gloom. (TI)>>
Magus Kevin's Opinion about Carmanos' Achievements [Carmanos the Reformer of Theistic Order]:
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1786.html
<<So, anyway... I believe that Carmanos had as much (or more) in common with
Pelanda as he did with Fronela. Carmanos might have gone questing as a
young adult to bridge the seemingly insurmountable gap between his father's
beliefs and the beliefs of his divine mother. In his searching, the answer
he found was the Pelandan god Idovanus, one of the High Gods. He completed
hideously dangerous quests involving both the Sorcerery and God planes,
and reached the ultimate Truth behind each faith - the Carmanian Religion
was born. At last he had found a way to bring East and West together in
one faith, just has his mother and father brought East and West together
by conceiving Carmanos. This might have taken quite some time, BTW. Although
around 20 years had passed in the mundane world, who knows how much time
passed in Castle Blue or in the Planes of myth and magic where Carmanos
quested to find the Truth?
Then Carmanos came ashore with the Book of Two and delivered the good news to the people of Brinnus. How was it received? The Ten Thousand were a mixed bag of western Malkioni and assorted other people who joined along the way. Carmanos claimed to be the son of their leader, Syranthir. Was he able to prove this in some way? There aren't any stories of rebellion among the Ten Thousand so he must have been pretty convincing. Then he had to convince everyone of the Truth of his teachings. I imagine epic debates and magical contests with the Fronelan wizards happened, ending with their being convinced. The rest of the Ten Thousand would require less convincing - his power would be enough. >>
<<Ultimately, I think it just fits the situation better. I mean, many of
the Ten Thousand would have been in the same boat. They didn't *need* to
convert to the Carmanian religion, which was new and weird and kind of
foreign. They *did* convert because a) it was in their best interest, and
b) Carmanos was damned persuasive. In fact, I think there were probably
many Bull worshipers in the Ten Thousand from their days as mercenaries
working for the Kereusi in the Sweet Sea League. The links between the
Ten Thousand and the Bisosae of Brinnus might have been stronger than it
appears on the surface.
As for Carmanos wanting or not wanting converts, I just can't imagine a religious reformer who would be satisfied with converting just a tiny few people (the monotheistic portion of the Ten Thousand). When he returned from Castle Blue *everyone* was polluted by the Lie - including the western wizards. It was through his teachings that the Lie was separated from the Truth. It seems to me that in those early days, when Bisos was revealed to be a Good God, his rites were revised certified "Lie Free", and bingo! You have a new Carmanian cult - Bisos Carmanos, as opposed to plain old polluted Bisos. Likewise, Hum'akt was recognized, revised, and you get Hum'akt Carmanos - the new and improved Carmanian Hum'akt cult. In the early days of the religion, before the war with Spol really got underway, Carmnos tested each of the major deities of Pelanda and certified them as a Good God or as servants of the Lie. Each new cult brought more converts aboard the nascent religion. Then the conquest of the lower Oronin Valley began (the war against Ulawar, ect) and the happy days of liberation and religious reform gave way to the grim years of war and subjugation.>>
Peter's objection about Carmanos Revelation [Carmanos the Prophet]:
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1798.html
Kevin McDonald:
<<So, anyway... I believe that Carmanos had as much (or more) in common with
Pelanda as he did with Fronela. Carmanos might have gone questing as a
young adult to bridge the seemingly insurmountable gap between his father's
beliefs and the beliefs of his divine mother.>>
Peter:
<<The gap only exists in the God Learner scheme of things, which the Ten
Thousand rejected. Whatever the precise beliefs of the Ten Thousand, I
don't think they were all that troubled about the division between Gods
and God. Moreover they were now resident in a land in which already had
a Creator and Sorcerers, as well as an explanation for both alongside gods
and spirits.
I would stress instead the role of the Lie. As one of the Ten Thousand, Carmanos would be affected by the need to oppose the Lie, rather than God Learner speculation about reconciling Gods and Sorcery. The motif is a popular one giving that the Ten Thousand are still sore about the beating they took from the God Learners and they like the Pelandans are fighting off the Spolites. What they lack is a moral compass that gives them a sense of certainty.>>
(LIE AND TRUTH.(TI))
Kevin McDonald:
<<In his searching, the answer he found was the Pelandan god Idovanus, one
of the High Gods.>>
Peter:
<<I would delete mention of the High Gods here as there is a conflict between
Idovanus as one of the High Gods and Idovanus as the Creator. Secondly
Idovanus was already known as the Creator in Pelanda as far back as the
Storm Age. >>
Kevin McDonald:
<<I don't see a conflict - the Pelandans believed that Idovanus was both
Creator and God of Order without it being an issue. (although why this
is I don't know). Still, it makes a big difference what perspective the
article is being written from. Certainly modern Carmanians would play down
the connection.>>
Peter:
<<Secondly the identification between Irensavel and Idovanus is something
that most of the Ten Thousand could have worked out by themselves, and
if they couldn't then there were Logicians on hand to drop unsubtle hints.
I think it more likely that everybody knew that Idovanus had the answer
but that GanEstoro prevented people from speaking to him.>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<He completed hideously dangerous quests involving both the Sorcerery and
God planes, and reached the ultimate Truth behind each faith - the Carmanian
Religion was born.>>
Peter:
<<This is getting a bit artificial (not to mention that questing is done
on the Heroplanes). Carmanos sounds to me more like an inspired prophet
rather than a religious syncretizer.
I would stress Carmanos's need to speak to Idovanus. And to do that, he must overcome GanEstoro or a wordly representative. Since YarGan wears Oronin's adamant crown, Carmanos in defeating him, not only gets to speak to Idovanus but ends up wearing becoming the magical ruler of ancient Wendaria/Pelanda.>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<The Ten Thousand were a mixed bag of western Malkioni and assorted other
people who joined along the way. Carmanos claimed to be the son of their
leader, Syranthir.>>
Peter:
<<I'm not so sure? The Carmanians weren't interested in Syranthir until a
couple of centuries later when Nadar went on a rampage in Fronela.>>
Peter:
<<the Ten Thousand were an army, not a hereditary fief. If Carmanos was to
exert influence over them, then IMO he needed something stronger than "my
daddy lead you lot and my mommy's a goddess". Considering Syranthir's
personal misfortune (his missus slept with his brother), the Ten Thousand
might be very skeptical about rights based on kinship.>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<Then he had to convince everyone of the Truth of his teachings. I imagine
epic debates and magical contests with the Fronelan wizards happened, ending
with their being convinced. The rest of the Ten Thousand would require
less convincing - his power would be enough.>>
Peter:
<<It depends on what is to be argued about. The reconciliation between Loskalmi
and Pelandan religions had already been carried out over the past ages
by the Logicians. The Loskalmi wizards were more concerned about how their
sorcery could be used for evil purposes, something which I'm uncertain
Carmanos could have decided one way or another.
Hence I think Carmanos was respected because he was ordained by Idovanus
as Shah and that he provided a clear, accessible answer to the spiritual
angst that plagued the Ten Thousand and possibly some Pelandans.
I don't think his position as Shah carried anything close to the absolute political power that his successors enjoyed. Rather it was more like a Pope, somebody which the powers pay great deference to publicly even if they disagree with you. His successors used their position to accummulate political power to transform the Shahdom into an all-powerful monarchy.>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<On the other hand, I think once Bisos was established as a Good God in
the Carmanian Religion they would have good reason to get on board - not
just as allies but as converts. >>
Peter:
<<But the good reasons are not compelling for all Bisosae for nine hundred
years after the arrival of the Ten Thousand, there are still significant
numbers of non-Carmanian Bisosae.>>
Kevin McDonald:
<<As for Carmanos wanting or not wanting converts, I just can't imagine a
religious reformer who would be satisfied with converting just a tiny few
people (the monotheistic portion of the Ten Thousand). >>
Peter:
<<I can point to the example of Jean Calvin who preached a religion which
came close to that. Religions can grow and spread without the zeal to make
converts. >>
Kevin McDonald:
<<It seems to me that in those early days, when Bisos was revealed to be
a Good God, his rites were revised certified "Lie Free", and
bingo! You have a new Carmanian cult - Bisos Carmanos, as opposed to plain
old polluted Bisos. >>
Peter:
<<But the plain old polluted Bisos still survives. The Pelandan farmers and
warriors worship him but believe in the Jernotian Way, not the Carmanian
rites.>>
Kevin:
<<I think this is the result of a post-carmanian Jernotian revival in Oronin
and Doblian rather than a continuous tradition.>>
Kevin:
<<I think most of these non-Carmanian Bisosae are in Vanstal and the Worian
hills rather than around Lake Oronin. Around Lake Oronin (IMHO), Bisos
as the Right Hand of Idovanus holds sway.>>
Groups of Carmanos Age
Ten Thousands of Loskalm
Spolite Empire
Bisosae (so-called Kereusi? in Jhor?)
Bindle Blue People (allied with Spolite?)
Castle Blue and Veth Ethdisi, Charmain (Vyran)
Godlearners of West
Pelandan Aborigines
Zoroaster -> Carmanos
Sorcery: Estrekor, Spolite Sorcerers? (YarGan Logicians?)
Theism: Bull Stops Here Battle(Lenshi versus Bisosae), King Oronin's Adamant
Crown, Killing Brass Lion and bringing Stone Tablet from Tarakolos (Brass)
Mountains.
Mysticism: Son of Lake Oronin (Goddess Charmain), Jernotian Seven High Gods ->Magi of Idovanus against Lie of GanEstoto
Pelandan and Carmanian Mysticism
<<I heard that only 100 members of Magi can be in Brinnus at a same
time at least in modern day West Reach.
If one dies, another was replaced from stock of chosen ones from their
birth, (before that, they belongs to Vizier caste?) >>(TI)
Magus Kevin's Writings about Mysticism of Brinnus
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1777.html
<<Of course this re-opens the old debate on the theistic or sorcerous nature
of the Carmanian religion itself. My current understanding is that it is
a little of both without misapplied worship being an issue. You can be
fully Carmanian and worship one of the Good Gods. Hopefully the ILH-1 sheds
some light on this topic.>> (Point of View of Rule Mechanics of HW-HQ series)
<<I also thought of them as mystics (and still do). I don't believe that
this necessarily resolves the tension, though. Martin says that the Carmanians
know a secret that allows sorcery and theism to work together seamlessly
- perhaps the mysticism of the Magi bridges the gap between the two. Martin
also said that Carmanians hate mystics in general - the Jernotian Way is
too flexible for them. They like things clearly spelled out, in "black
and white" as it were. For the Carmanians, the Magi may be a carefully
controlled and guarded mysticism, used for the greater Good. This explains
why the Magi have to be more holy - separated from society and celibate.
Martin said that Carmanian philosophy forbids celibacy and acetisism, particularly
for sorcerers. The Magi are the sole exception to this rule, and they embody
its opposite.>>
Peter Metcalph's Objection about Mysticism of Carmania:
<<I don't see the problem [about relaionship between Mysticism and Sorcery]. It's stated in the Glorantha: Intro (p120) that the Carmanians gave up sorcery for the most part because others showed them that it was evil. Thus most Carmanians are theistic while the Viziers are sorcerous and no misapplied worship is necessary. >>
Peter Metcalph's Conclusion about Carmanian and Pelandan Worship:
http://glorantha.kondalski.org/g9index/1818.html
<<At first I thought that Idovanus was worshipped as a High God in one place
and the Creator in another. But that doesn't square with the information
in the Entekosiad, which has the following:
a) Idomon established Idovanus as one of the High Gods (Entekosaid p56)
b) During the reign of Idomon's grandson, Gartemirus, Idovanus is said
to be the Creator (Entekosiad p43).
It's understandable for Viovanus to become Idovanus as there's a big difference
between the Wendarians and the Pelandans. But the change from one of the
High Gods to sole Creator in just two generations is implausible. At the
same time Gartemirus is said to rule with the advice and power of the Seven
High Gods.
My thinking is that the Pelandans believed in seven different creation
stories,
one for each High God. Some of the other six creation stories might be
read elsewhere in the Entekosiad (Uleria p4, Dendara p9, Turos p44 and
Oria p46. Jernotius's myth might be on p44 with Kagardu as a mask of GanEstoro,
while Bentus was probably dead drunk). That these creation myths partially
contradict each other is no big deal to the Pelandans for they know that
"All is Change, All is Balance".
So a Pelandan dedicated to one High God would accept his or her creation
story and other myths as the core mythic cycle but also recognize the validity
of other High God myths that explains the little details that the core
mythic cycle can't explain. What the Carmanians did was to accept the Idovanus
mythic cycle, deny the Jernotian Way and attribute what couldn't be explained
to GanEstoro.
Idovanus's nature is more complex. Simply stating that he's defiant doesn't
work as that's applicable to disorder rune entities. ILH-1 p39 doesn't
help when the people most likely to worship him are said to worship the
god Idem instead (I suspect they made the change in order to avoid giving
a straight answer to this thorny problem!).
Fortunately a partial answer presents itself in the ILH-1 p17 where the
Lunars are said to use any kind of magic (spells, feats, charms) so long
as it is lunar. It seems to me that since the Jernotian Way was a precursor
to the Lunar Way, a more limited version could be applicable to magics
involving the High Gods (i.e. a Pelandan could use both feats and spells).
More important is how the Pelandans would understand the division between
sorcery and god magic? I think following the example of Jernotius, the
Pelandans divide the otherworld into Male Space (the sorcerous planes)
and Female Space (the God World). Everything else (Hero Planes, Spirit
World, Underworld) is mixed. Following Jernotius's example (starting with
the defeat of the Blue King), the High Gods are able to be worshipped as
Gods or Sorcerous concepts. Precedent for this exists in Anaxial's Roster
where Uleria's servants, the Tiltnae, exist in multiple forms.
Since most Pelandans are theists, I think the Logicians/Blue Wizards are really not ideological descendents of the Blue King's minions but Pelandans that understand the cosmos through the Male perspective, which is why the others tolerate them. >>
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