Personal Memo for Nick Brooke's Carmanian History
(and an example to young students of Glorantha of what should not be with
Real World History....?)
Some Personal Check Points of Nick Brooke's Carmanian History
Carmanian Warfare: Comments from Martin Laurie
Analysis of Entekosiad Mythic Cycles (Translation from my Japanese Note)
Some Personal Check Points of Nick Brooke's Carmanian History
About Carmania History, read also FS p.94-100.
An Outline of Carmanian History
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/carmhist.htm
The March of the Ten thousand: Syranthir's Anabasis
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/anabasis.htm
Read Greek Original Xenophon's Anabasis and think about the difference
between Xenophon and Syranthir for the hidden meaning.
Syranthir the Wanderer, Forefront
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/syranthir.htm
Anaitis: Goddess of Asia Minor, identified with Zoroastrian Yazta Anahita.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/anahita.html
Check: Komos the Mage, Rising Day
Carmanos the Lawbringer
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/carmanos.htm
Compare Carmanos with Zoroaster in Gatha and Moses (Stone Tablet of Law?)
See Herodotos: Persians and their "right actions". Spolite Empire....there
is not enough information as Vadeli Empire.
http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html
Check: First Capital Brinnus (rather Religious Center, think about the
change of role of Shahs throughout history)
Surandar the Warleader
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/surandar.htm
Check: General Marconius of Ulawar (City of Uleria), Bashkar Lion Guard and
similarity of DH Durbaddath cult.
Carshandar the Peacemaker
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/carshandar.htm
Check: Second Capital Surandash (Named by his father Surandar, near of
Ulawar) Think about the frequent change of capital, maybe their nature to
nomad life style like early Akhaimenesians. I suppose. (Perhaps they have
two capitals...summer and winter?)
The Dark and Light Shahs
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/darkshah.htm
Check: The Man of Five Stones and Twice Blessed (Old Day Traditionalist),
the resistance against EWF for Alakoringa Saga.
The Lion Shahs
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/lionshah.htm
Check: Some about religious reform
Nick Brooke: Other sacrifices take place on "Fire Altars": some
Dara Happan (open square
altars with fires burning in dips on the top), others Spolite (ovens
and furnaces wrought of clay, stone or brass).
Reference to some other Iranian Documents like Mary Boyce's "Zoroastrians".
(Very Good Book for the history of Zoroastrians)
Shah Saman is the great religious reformer. He listens to the prophet *A,
who resolves the conundrum that has led to such great strife and conflict.
Me: Perhaps you can put Alijiyah to the spot, he was named in the both sections
religious reform (FS p.98) and art style (FS p.99).
Maybe he can be compared with Mani in the writing of Amin Maaloaf. Just a
vague supposition.
Sulvilster: See the Map of FS p. 41,43,45 <His Domain of South Bull
Barbarians>
Honeyed Words - Three Generations of Peace
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/honeyed.htm
Check: Emperor Karvanyar in FS, Sarenesh and Harald Smith's writing about
Great King Verenmars
http://www.gloranthadigest.com/cgi-bin/message.py?ref=20744
Interesting. (Martin Laurie's tale about Dragon Sun is also fine for me, but
David Dunham doesn't like it.....)
and the spheres of Light and Darkness invoked to protect the capital,
Surandash.
Still its capital is near of Ulawar.
The Alkothiad - Three Generations of War
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/alkothiad.htm
Alkothiad....Learn more about the campaign between DH and Carmania. And the
history of several sieges to the legendary Bloodsoaked city. (Maybe it has
similarity between cycles of Greek Troy and that of Alkoth....but Alkoth has
never fallen....)
"What is Alkothiad?"
"It is an epic between Carmanian Warlord Shah Haran
the Great and
unconquerable City of Alkoth during the last days of Three
Generations of
War."
"I know, in the reign of Emperor Kumardash and
Khorviramaka (around
1085-1095), but there is not enough mention in Fortunate
Succession of
"Mountain War" ."
"But Alkoth did never fall to the
Carmanian Army as the similar City of RW
Asia Minor, as you know. Though it
costs greatly both sides,,,,,"
"The trickery of Wooden Bull didn't work
well to the fanatical berserkers of
the City of Hell, I know. But I can still
find some similarity with Troy..."
"But the RW cycle of troy legend told
me that akhaeans must have clear to
many conditions before they could
subjugate the city, like stealing the
ancient statue of Athena, removing the
base stone of the Gate....maybe
carmanians simply failed to do so."
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/TrojanWar.html
Nick: At the heart of the epic are two competing, apparently opposed prophecies. The Alkothi
*know* that their city will never fall to an enemy. Shah Haran of Carmania *knows* that
he will ride in triumph through the streets of Alkoth.
This contradiction is resolved when the Carmanians ally with Alkoth to fight
the EWF remnants in the south (leads to the Dragonkill War). After one early
battle, Haran did indeed ride in triumph through the streets of his allies'
city. He never did subjugate Alkoth, despite the heroic ten-year siege.
Check: Eurotas (Sparta) and Cephissos (Athens), but I cannot find the
reference that Nick mentioned in Plutarch....but I suppose it is in
Lycurgos.
And Liutprand of Cremona, the ambassador of Otto the Great to Byzantine
Court.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/liudprand1.html
Nick Brooke: What I was mentioning there was a rather funny rhetorical
device I found
in Plutarch: an Athenian orator boasts at great length of how many times
his city's armies
have repelled Spartan invaders from the Cephissos (a river in Attica); then the Spartan
he's showing off to says, "Funny: we've never beaten the Athenians
back from the Eurotas" (the river in Laconia).
The "joke" is that Spartan armies often attacked the Athenians
in their homeland;
the Athenians never got close to Sparta. The parallel would be that Carmanian
armies attacked Dara Happa while Carmania itself was never threatened by
Dara
Happans. When I was working on this, I used a more "Classical"
model for the Dara
Happans (Golden Age Greek / Roman Republic), with the expectation that Lunar
culture would be the Hellenistic or Imperial successor cultures (with their
richer
Orientalising and monarchical tendencies). This was of course before the
Glorious
ReAscent etc. were written.
The Bull Shahs
http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/bullshah.htm
Check: Agincourt (Battlefield of 100 War between France and England for the
wealth of Flandre.) See Shakespeare's "Henry Fifth"?
English Longbows defeated French Crossbows and Knights.....
Nick Brooke: The parallel with Agincourt was one of Greg's, derived from our
correspondence while I was writing the Carmanian History. I understood him
to mean that, whereas with Agincourt the English won a battle but ended up
losing the Hundred Years' War, the "Carmanian March" campaign was a defeat
for the Carmanians in the short term which meant they ended up ruling over
all Dara Happa.
Me: The "Victory Herald" died in the Carmanian March until you
mentioned here.
But (though I don't know enough about French History) there is no Jeanne
D'ark
in the portion of FS and France suffered long even after they lost in Agincourt.
Nick Brooke: I may not have made myself sufficiently clear. It is *completely*
unnecessary to have any knowledge of the Hundred Years War to follow the
history of Carmania. There is no reworked "Joan of Arc" in my writings.
There is no intended parallel between Carmania/Dara Happa and
France/England, either way around. Twelfth century Peloria is profoundly
unlike fourteenth century Europe. You are reading *WAY* too much into an
off-the-cuff comment from Greg, not intended for publication.
See below about the Warfare of Carmania
Read also the description of Fall of DH tripolis (except Alkoth) through
Carmanian March.
Maybe there is similarity between Khosroe Parviz extravagant reign and that
of Bull shahs. Then, who is Khosroe Ansirwan?
Read Nizami's beautiful poetries.
Read more about the "Sultan-Caliph" system of Ottoman turkey for the reign
of Bisoshan and Bisodakar (But I suppose Efendi doesn't like such analogue,
for Sultan Caliph System is not so good for the parallel, because it is
farfetched interpretation of history by later Ottoman Sultans against
Tangimart and Khemal Ataturk) But I think the post of Dara Happan Emperor
became that of authority without any political power...like japanese
emperors under the Shogunate period or Caliphs of Abbasyd under amirs of Bouyides
or Sultans of Seljuks. Puppets but still holds religious leadership in certain status.
Capitals of Carmania
Enthyr (Capital of Spolite Empire)
http://kpmcdona.home.mindspring.com/carmania/map.htm
Brinnus (Carmanos) of Jhor
Surandash (See mainly Sassandar Section, most long remained capital) of
Lunar Pelanda
Harandash (Haran) of Bindle
Shardash (aka Dolebury (Redline History) or Burntwall, the capital of
Decadence, see the section of Bisodakar) of Thrice Blessed
Me: As far as I know about Ancient Iranians, they built several capitals
as
Achaimenesians built Pasargadae, Susa, Persepolis.
Parthians made Hecatompylos and Ctesiphon as their capital, Sassanians moved
from Istakhr, Nishapur and Ctesiphone.
(I hope I don't mistake something here....)
Nick Brooke: I don't know anything about this. I intended Carmania to have
several "capitals" / palace cities, to flesh out the history
of various cities in
the West Reaches and give a better texture and architectural depth to the
country. (In part, this was because, after I'd identified "Dolebury" (Zero
Wane History) with "Burntwall" (Genertela Book), I wanted to
have some Carmanian
royal sites still occupied towards the end of the Third Age...)
Nick's description of the First Battle of Chaos
(Only Available for Hero Wars Mailing List members)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HeroQuest-RPG/message/14141
If Modern LE is Sassanians...
Akhaimenes: Lion Shahs
Successors: Bull Shahs
Parthians: Vakthan Ilart and TakenEgi
Sassanians: Arronius and Magnificus
Greg's Final Comment: This is too much parallelism. These comparisons are to be
used as starting analogs. You seem to be stuck in equivalencies.
Free yourself!
Okay, I will go to Alkoth and return after the Purification Ritual.....(or
beheaded by Berserkers....)
Carmanian Warfare: Comments from Martin Laurie
I get a vague impression that Ancient Persians are Nomads (who wore pants)
rather than the impression I got from Loren's and your work about the Army
of Loskalm (Ten-Thousand) like heavy-armored riders like cataphracts of late
Sassanian Army. <About Akhaimenesians, they began to use pants in the
same manner of
Caesar's sons-in-law Julius wore pants under their toga, they trespassed
traditional Babylonian city states from their upland barbaric manner.>
And like recent Queen's Rock's army of Alehandro.....Though I don't have
studied Persians as profession, I don't know how far the image of "lowlander
soft people of Pelanda and highland grim rock castles of Western Feudal
Lords" is suited to any period of RW iranian image.
Nick's Quotation from Herodotos "History" last paragraph <Excerpt
from the last
paragraph of the chapter: Calliope "the History">:
: 122. Now a forefather of this ArtaFFctes who was hung up, was that
: Artembares who set forth to the Persians a proposal which they took up
: and brought before Cyrus, being to this effect: "Seeing that Zeus
: grants to the Persians leadership, and of all men to thee, O Cyrus, by
: destroying Astyages, come, since the land we possess is small and also
: rugged, let us change from it and inhabit another which is better: and
: there are many near at hand, and many also at a greater distance, of
: which if we take one, we shall have greater reverence and from more
: men. It is reasonable too that men who are rulers should do such
: things; for when will there ever be a fairer occasion than now, when
: we are rulers of many nations and of the whole of Asia?" Cyrus,
: hearing this and not being surprised at the proposal,[123] bade them
: do so if they would; but he exhorted them and bade them prepare in
: that case to be no longer rulers but subjects; "For," said he, "from
: lands which are not rugged men who are not rugged are apt to come
: forth, since it does not belong to the same land to bring forth fruits
: of the earth which are admirable and also men who are good in war." So
: the Persians acknowledged that he was right and departed from his
: presence, having their opinion defeated by that of Cyrus; and they
: chose rather to dwell on poor land and be rulers, than to sow crops in
: a level plain and be slaves to others.
Me:I rather recall the sarcasm of Paul Atreides lastly addressed to his
father-in-law Padishah- Emperor in the "Desert Planet of Dune".
I suppose at least I understand what you intend to talk about the difficulty
from the POV of geopolitics about the parallel between RW Iran and Carmania.
General Castokum (IIRC) induced stirrups from East, Kralorela? in the
Erzanestyu Dynasty.
If Malkioni induced it later and not invented by their own...it might change
greatly the older scheme of Gloranthan Malkioni Knights.
Both comments of Nick's and Martin's are interesting, (and I took notice
that Nick used Achaimenesians (from POV of Greeks) while Martin mainly used
Sassanians (from POV of Byzantines like Procopius.)
For Battle Tactics of Carmanians:
I used Google Persia+Iran+Cavalry+Military+Ancient
Mesopotamia
http://www.dalton.org/groups/rome/Mesopotamia.html
Sassanian Military
http://pchome.grm.hia.no/~fsaljoug/SassMil.htm
Sassanian Cavalry
http://www.redrampant.com/ancients/per1.html
Martin Laurie's Comment about Carmanian Military Affair:
Best period would be around 1150 Crusader states tactics mixed with a dollop
of
14th & 15th century Burgundy under Charles the Bold (esp his campaigns
against
the Swiss), however due to the odd blend of stirrup wearing shock cavalry mixed with
actual hoplites, it is a bit difficult to put the Carmanians into a direct
RW analogy.
The Carmanians also field Janissaries and city communal regiments of halberdeers
and pikemen.
Also it would help if you specified which period of Carmanian
tactics you were looking for, they have evolved a lot over the millenia
or so they
have been kicking around as a state. Books on Crusader tactics that are
detailed
yet a quick study would be:
"Crusading Warfare 1097-1193" by R. C. Smail with the follow on to that
work "Warfare in the Latin East 1192-1291" by Christopher Marshall both
available from Cambridge or on Amazon.com. Verbruggen's "The Art of Warfare in Western
Europe" is another excellent read with much information on infantry in a medieval
period. The Carmanians field a strong infantry. Verbruggen will show why
only
states with a combined arms force were triumphant in the long run.
Due to the influence of the Char-un on the Carmanians in the last 100 years
they also have a good comparison going for them with 13th century Hungary.
The Osprey book "Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe" has some
good info on a knightly culture interacting with the nomadic, though they
lacked a large and well appointed infantry.
Kelly Devries has a nice short book "Infantry Warfare in the Early
Fourtheenth Century" that has some great info on the Swiss and the Catalan
Grand Company and how they defeated shock cavalry.
I've an ongoing document on the Carmanian military which may see light of
day when I've finished working through their military evolution but it is a
low burn project when compared to the other things I am working on. Time! Oh
for infinite time!
I don't intend to criticize Martin's idea about these analogies for I don't
have ability to do so and I love his work.
But...maybe I have vague misgivings that his Lunar is too Europeanized....
From the POV of Chinese History (as you might know, Japanese Older Culture
is greatly influenced from China), some of fundamental theory is ignored
like the "corruption of city life" (Ibn Haldun) though Chinese "farmers"
have greatly suffered by the invasion of Nomad Powers more than Europeans.
Like your parallel between Eurotas and Cephissos equal Sparta (Martial, Land
Army, Brushness, Oligarchy) and Athens (Civilized, Decadent, Democracy)
Germany (Brutal) and Byzantine (Decadent) I want to know about the knowledge
which I certainly missed.
(See above about the Nick's quotation of Herodotos)
From Martin Laurie's writing about nomads:
Well I think that the academic interest in pastoralists has been rising
lately. This work has shown the symbiotic relationship between nomads and
agrarian societies that was perhaps poorly understood before. As a result
it
is quite evident that all nomadic cultures interacted with cities or urban
cultures at some point and gained from it. The degree to which they
interacted was the basis for the alteration in their society.
Martin's Reply about my opinion:
Terra, you really have to get over the hang-up about "Europeanization"
of
every topic, you are looking for bias when there is none and missing the
point as a result. My use of crusade state analogy for the Carmanians has
nothing whatsoever to do with a European bias, I have spent a small fortune
on books on Asian military history and am fascinated by it (Eurasian military
history is a spectrum not divisible into parts or places, they all impact on
one another).
However, you have to look at the facts when coming up with analogy. The
Syranthiran army was a merc force from the west, our best religous and
cultural analogy for them in the RW is Christianity of the early medieval
period.
On the other hand, the Persians were a nomadic people who rose to prominence
after the defeat of the Parthians, also a nomadic people who rose to dominate
the post Seleucid Iranian region. The Geopolitiks of Iran is not like
Pelanda. The Syranthiri were not nomadic culturally and though there are
some excellent religious parallels that Nick put together with Zoroastran
thought, militarily they are not the same at all. Trying to shoehorn
Sassanian military tactics into Carmanian history does not work because they
have very different origins.
In religious terms what Carmanos did was unify a pantheistic culture with
some monotheistic beliefs to create Carmanian dualism (which is still in many
ways pantheistic as they accept gods into their religions as long as they are
'good'). Militarily the Carmanians were a fusion of Pelandan concepts with
western ones. ie strong infantry and a powerful shock cavalry. The
Sassanians had no such parallel, their infantry was, as Procopius points out,
"was nothing more than a crowd of pitiable peasants" and at Dara they were
slaughtered, throwing down their shields once the Clibinari were defeated.
They had heavy cavalry but little infantry and certainly no significant heavy
infantry. This is quite the opposite of the Carmanians who have their own
Janissaries as well as the Pelandan auxiliary forces, many of whom are
Daxdarian elites on the model of the Spartans and the Theban Sacred Band. The
Sassanians also had swarms of nomad style horse archers which the Carmanians
clearly did not. If an 'eastern' analogy is still sought then the best might
well be the Ottomans of the reign of Mehmet II around 1453, the fall of
Constantinople (minus the artillery) as an example of the modern Carmanian
army but even there the nomadic element would have to be expunged. The
Ottomans do at least have a decent infantry. To go back further, the
Seleucids also have an attraction for analogy but they have no stirrup shock
cavalry and again are supported by many nomadic auxiliaries which the
Carmanians were not and have never been.
So to recap, the choice of Carmanian military anaolgy (as we were asked for
suitable analogies) I made has nothing to do with a bias but a lot to do with
analysing the region they live in, the influences they have on them (enemies
and terrain) and then evolving that through the many wars and campaigns we
know about with regard to their history.
Me: I suppose at least I understand what you intend to talk about the difficulty
from the POV of geopolitics about the parallel between RW Iran and Carmania.
General Castokum (IIRC) induced stirrups from East, Kralorela? in the
Erzanestyu Dynasty.
If Malkioni induced it later and not invented by their own...it might change
greatly the older scheme of Gloranthan Malkioni Knights.
Both comments of Nick's and Martin's are interesting, (and I took notice
that Nick used Achaimenesians (from POV of Greeks) while Martin mainly used
Sassanians (from POV of Byzantines like Procopius.)
Me: ("was nothing more than a crowd of pitiable peasants" (Procopius))
That is exactly the same that you wrote in the article of Arim's Army from
POV of lunars in Enclosure #1, Sorry, but I don't know how well Byzantines
keep their objectivism to their History.
http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/justinian/3.html
Martin's Comment
The Sassanians had no such parallel, their infantry was, as Procopius
points out, "was nothing more than a crowd of pitiable peasants"
and at
Dara they were slaughtered, throwing down their shields once the Clibinari
were defeated.
From my small Bookshelf about Ancient Warfare:
Clibinari is more heavy armored cavalry regiments than Cataphracti
in Sassanian Army. (On the contrary, in Byzantine Army, Cataphracti is more armored than
Clibinari.)
Me: In RW, neither of Achaimenes and Sassanians didn't know stirrups......
So, though I don't know where and when about the battlefield of Dara.
Only minor elite forces can wield long spear on their horsebacks.
(It needs great technic without stirrups.)
http://www.bartleby.com/67/275.html
603-606
The assassination of Maurice and his sons by Phocas (602) gave Khusrau the
opportunity to declare war against Constantinople. After defeating the
forces of Phocas, Khusrau's armies invaded Armenia and Syria and ravaged
Cappadocia; many cities were captured, including Dara (603), Amida, and
Resaina (606). In 604 a Sassanian army had been defeated by the Arabs at the
Battle of Dhu Qar.
Martin:
On the other hand, the Persians were a nomadic people who rose to
prominence after the defeat of the Parthians, also a nomadic people who rose to
dominate the post Seleucid Iranian region.
Hmm, I imaged Carmanos and his successors with Achaimenes Dynasty.
http://pchome.grm.hia.no/~fsaljoug/SassMil.htm
Despite its roots in feudal Parthia, and occasional relapses, the
Sassanian military showed an increasing degree of sophistication over the
years. From a traveling inspector of cavalry quality, to the elaborate
system of unit insignia, their armed forces approached but rarely exceeded
the overall "gravitas" of the contemporary Romans. Doubtless they were more
organized and professional than any of their other opponents, formidable as
those were, in Arabia, the Caucasus, Bactria, India, and the steppes. The
battle against feudalism took a major boost with the accession of Khusro I,
lapsed somewhat under his successors, and picked up too late under the
ill-starred Yazdagird III.
3.0 - Cavalry
The most famous component of the Sassanian military is the mounted arm. The
first record of cavalry is literally engraved in stone in a sequence of
monumental rock carvings starting from the beginning of the dynasty. Early
sculptures of the shahanshahs show armored lancers riding galloping leather-
or cloth-armored horses using a two-handed thrust to impale similarly armed
opponents. These are likely the successors of the Parthian cataphracts.
Martin:
Sassanians also had swarms of nomad style horse archers which the
Carmanians clearly did not.
<<Me: I remember Crassus' death in the hand of Parthians
(Plutarch) by the attacks of light cavalries. IIRC.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/crassus.html
Maybe Surandar Warleader induced stirrups to his Western Cavalry....or
Malkioni invented it independently?
Pelandans also have a legacy of horsemanship from the ancient Lenshi and
Lendarshi.....
At least, I can say Carmanians has changed greatly throughout their
history...from Carmanos and glorious Imperial Days, Blood Kings assassins
and to modern Lunar Army and Dart War champions....
Martin Laurie's comment about the tradition of Pelandan Footsoldiers:
The Carmanians do have a tradition of spear or pike units, but rather than
look at the Pelandan tradition, their communial peasantry are formed along
the lines of a RW analog that would be better associated with the Flemish
pike levy with lots of halberds, big maces and axes thrown in than any Greek
model. Even the early Schiltron of the scots would be a better model for the
Carmanian approach. This is one reason why they used the Daxdarians and made
Daxdarius a "Good God" of Idovanus, so that they could have access to a good
infantry. Carmanians also created a Janissary corps that was mostly infantry
and trained by the best foot soldiers they could bring to the capital.
Carmania is also famed for dismounting its men at arms or knights which was
part of the success Nadar the Avenger enjoyed over his chivalric Fronelan
opponents. By using combined arms skills learnt fighting in the Pelorian
basin, the Carmanian army routinely beat much larger Fronelan opponents
during that epic campaign.
After that, Greg Stafford Edict for Stirrups....
<< Stirrups are from West. (Not East!) in Glorantha.>>
See above the Greg's final statement for my straight analoguism....
And read again John Hughes' Lozenge Building 101.
http://www.glorantha.com/tribes/wtsattm.html
Read Head 8.
Analysis of Entekosiad Mythic Cycles (Translation from my Japanese Note)
Page by Pages of "Entekosiad" Mythic Cycle Analysis
Life of Carmanos: Discussion of Peter Metcalph and Kevin McDonald
Some Personal Check Points of Nick Brooke's Carmanian History
Carmanian Warfare: Comments from Martin Laurie
Analysis of Entekosiad Mythic Cycles (Translation from my Japanese Note)