History and Legend of River Oslir

Below is my debate between I and Peter Metcalph about River Oslir of the Mythic Age:

Question: Where the Sshorga Sea went through the Heortling Land and flooded Peloria? Did it run through the west of Stormwalk? (As modern Creekstream?) or the east of it? (As Seolinthor / modern Robcradle)

Terra Incognita: In Troll Pack, we can see the River go through the Dragon Pass and straightly linked to Oslira River, we know Heortland was not flooded by that. (See Thunder Rebels) So if the theory is on the course, Sshorga flooded modern Grazeland (land of Koroltes after the water subsided.) But I don't deny the idea the Giants originally used the Seolinthor for their birth.

Peter Metcalph: Look at the map in page 8 of Revealed Mythologies.  There you'll see Genertela flooded into three islands, one of which is centered around Kerofin.  The larger island to the west has two mountains - Nida and Top of the World, while an even smaller island to the north probably holds the last of the Pelorians.  Genert's land should be above the waters also but it's probably off the map.

Terra Incognita: IMO there are far more good map in Thunder Rebels p.144 (It seems Aroka = Seolinthor) and Uz Lore of Old Troll (Creekstream and Oslira was linked? though I don't know when Korang was killed and /or Urox made Stormwalk before or after) pack about Theistic Gods Age hints Greg's change of his concept.

And I can see Godlearner maps in Initiate site. But as far as Heortling called the event as the Orlanth's Second Dragon Slaying and the topology of the modern day Sshorg Sea and Genertela, I think rather the Flood between Prax and Dragonpass was the Aroka and Seolinthor from the POV of Heortling.

Peter Metcalph: But that isn't the Flood but the earlier Invasion of the Waters which Murharzarm repels.  The Flood is a far more devastating event.

Terra Incognita: IIRC, I think the situation is more complicated and River Oslir was not changed as other rivers of Peloria. Please see the Myth of Blue Serpent Sshorga.

First Nestendos came from North (not South) as GROY illustration and some Pelandan Mythology hinted. Maybe Murharzarm reversed the flow, or not.(Late Golden Age) Later, after Yelm was murdered (via Godlearner or Belintar View, Orlanth changed Aroka into Oslira and ordered to fill the Oppressive Empire.) Oslira was tamed by the Shargashi hero and called her mother, Sshorga.  (Early Storm Age)

Perhaps after that, Spike was destroyed and Magasta reversed the other rivers flow. Korang was maybe drowned by the Skyfall water till that time. (Though there is not Time from the POV of Orlanthi cosmology before Great Compromise.) (Great Darkness)

Peter Metcalph: Nestendos is said explicitly to have come from the north according to the GRAY text itself on page 11.  Since confusion over which way it flowed dates as far back as Gods of Glorantha (the Jrusteli Monomyth contains an artless reconciliation on page p10), the confusion is perhaps intentional.

Terra Incognita: Hmm, there is some communication barrier of mine, I think....And I have some obsession between the Oslir and Dara Happa, it is similar to the connection between Nile and Pharaohs, and Mesopotamia and Babylonia.....

First, we talked about RM Malkioni Storm Age map, and I said that was written by Westerners rather indifferent to the change of north continent. Second, the map of Thunder Rebels was written from the POV of Orlanthi, and in the myth of it, Orlanth killed Aroka after he had killed Yelm. So IMHO it is the Flood if I can think godlearnishly, Oslir was not created by Orlanth, he had it swollen and reverse the flow. (My POV of Unified Rationalized Way)

Dara Happans stopped several times the flow of Oslira in mythology. (Belintar's Book, by the Entika, and in Manarlavus the Roofer Reign) And IMHO they are always punished by their arrogant way of Civilization, (though Dara Happans never think so....)

Maybe the second flood in Gods of Glorantha peloria myth talked about the destruction of the Dome and Anaxial Dynasty after Vanyoramet was killed and Manimat succeeded.

I think the Argrath Saga talked about the backward flow as a Omen to the Reverse of Mythic Age. Perhaps the River is the Metaphor of Time of Righteous Order, (though most DHs doesn't admit it, as water is an inferior element....) Ziggurat is a artificial mountain for lowlanders. And Dara Happans loves to live there though they prefer to the pure realm of the Sky....

In a sense, from the POV of Pelorians, water is friendly to the Sky in the Mythic Age (from down to up), but antagonistic in Historical Age....surely, the Flood began from the North in the text of Gods of Glorantha.....Did you make sure about it? (Perhaps Greg changed his mind or found good reason to make the contradiction reasonable....)

In Historical Age, Oslir flows out from Rockwood and into the White Sea (and maybe the water go through under the Glacier to West Ocean....) Perfectly IMHO, maybe Orlanth ordered Aroka to incite the water of north Genertela to submerge DH......(And if I can use the limited sense of Dara Happa for the Flood, IMHO the Image of Serpent and the direction of its head in GROY illustration page 14 (Headed to South) and 22 (headed to North) hinted that the Flood reversed the flow of the Great River. After that, Oslira returned its original river bed and began to flow to upward as other Storm Age rivers, IMHO.)

Historical Age
& River Flow
Dara Happa Heortling
Late Golden Age
(To South)
Nestendos was repelled
by Murharzarm
(See GROY p.14)
Umath was born and his death created
White Sea
Early Storm Age
Ovosto Dynasty
Shargash and his wives
(Oslira and Biselenslib)

Mythology of Entika and
Sshorga (Belintar's Book)
Orlanth killed Yelm
(or Murharzarm)
The Flood
(To North)
Sshorga submerged

Anaxial the Sailor navigated
the Quake Lake by his Ark
(See GROY p.22)
Orlanth killed Aroka
and (freed Heler?) released it as Oslira
Middle Storm
(To South?)
Water subsided
Lukarius and Urvairinus
Storm - Water War
Helerites and Sofali conquered South
Sea (Waertagi?)
The Roofer
Manarlavus made the Dome
and stopped Oslira
(White Lake & Green Lake:
a god Selagern)
Kinstrife started and Trolls made
their own domains
Late Storm
(To South)
Vanyoramet died and the Roof
was collapsed from North by the
Stream: GROY p.33
Hill of Gold Quest, Stormfall War
against Chaos.
Larnste Footprint was made by Krashit
Great Darkness
(To North)
Riverse Flow of
All River
Shargash Reign

Korang was killed by Hard Earth and Engizi
(Creekstream River was made)
Explosion of Spike
Historical Age
(To North)
From West Rockwood
to Kenyrian (White) Sea
From Black Orm (Skyfall)
Creekstream River
through Dragonpass
Hero Wars
(To South)
Queen of Saird
Red Emperor's Army
Daughter of River
and King Argrath

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