What's the similarity and difference between the Lunar Empire and the Roman Empire?



This is one of frequently asked questions about Lunar Empire since the time of "White Bear and Red Moon".

Lunar Empire is similar to Roman Empire.
šNo, it is more similar to Byzantine Empire.
šNot Rome. It is more similar to Sassanoid Persia.
So, its a trend from west to east, but I am not Greg Stafford, and I don't want to pretend to know whether it is from his vague image, or from a point of view to his religion, culture, or military.

Tadaaki Kakegawa's question (2001):
You mentioned that Lunar Empire is much similar to Sassanoid Empire, but refering to Unspoken Word #1, Tarsh Culture is much similar to Roman culture. Can I analyze that Sairdite Culture is similar to Romans, and so whole system of LE Political Structure and Culture is Persian-like Style? (That is the speculation of recent answer to him..)


Greg Stafford's answer (2001):
I can not control how other people see the Empire and choose to portray it in their own publications. The Roman Empire certainly has many characteristics that are similiar to the Lunar Empire. However, from MY perspective the Middle East is MUCH more appropriate. For starters, the Lunars do not have the methodology of standardization that seems so pervasive of the Romans. Certainly the empire has organization, but it is a hodge podge of collected parts, not a nice top-down political arrangement.

Note to other army: the LE has no such unity as the Romans had, they do not use the legion either.


Below is my humble and rough attempt of listing similarity and difference. (and I don't learn Roman Imperial history systematically. Any comments by good roman /lunar historians are welcomed.) "Imperial Military" article first draft was exhibited around 2001 in official Issaries website, ant planned as one of Stafford Library as a title of "Murharzarm's Muster". But that plan was faded away as many bold glorantha plans. Some part can be found at here.


Similar Points


  1. Large Territory
    Both holds many ethnics and races in great territory, and I suppose Lunar Provincial Office of Mirin's Cross follows "Divide and Rule" policy as SPQR that it intentionally causes unfair treatment to closed communities (good example can be found among clans and tribes of Sartarites which hold pro-Lunars and anti-Lunars.) to prevent coooperation and unity of subject people.


  2. Costume(Toga)

    It is rather a tradition of an ancient age in Dara Happa, in Erzanestyu Dynasty after Gbaji War, senators (togamen) were assembled representatives of each cities, their costumes were toga (as in the manner of Dara Happa, wearers insisted that their costume are from Golden Age.) From that time, togamen can be found in Empire.



    In the article of Greg's "Imperial Military", higher class people tend to dress longer toga trains.



  3. Tolerance of Foreign Religions

    In Lunar Empire, local religion is generally tolerated as far as it accepts Red Goddess (and Illumination.) It can be count as a similar point between the two as Roman Empire tolerated foreign pantheons and syncretism was promoted (as far as that foreign community obeyed and paid tax.)

    Some exceptions can be found like Christianity, (It was considered antisocial for denying worship of emperors.) It is certainly a some decree of parallel to White Moon Movement in Lunar Empire.



  4. Hellenistic Culture
    In Gloranthan Peloria, an original area of pseudo-Hellenistic Culture is Pelanda, but I cannot find when it was introduced to Dara Happan Empire in the article of "Imperial Military" (Some traces of Greg's attempt to create link might be found in the 2001 draft, and I remember there was Greg's vast memorandum about Pelorian Culture in Issaries Office when I visited there).

    Ironically, real historical events and first introduction of Greek culture to Rome is also vague, for there was enigmatic Etruscan Culture before Rome and it was assumed as from Asia Minor. And Rome might have indirectly influenced by that of Hellenistic Culture.


  5. Vexillum
    There is a type of quadranglar army flags used by Roman Empire, called "Vexilla". In Roman Legions, each regiments hold original vexillum. In Lunar Empire, vexillum are holy objects with regimental guardians called "Lares" (See "Gathering Thunder" article about Hero Band guardians.) and special regiments with such guardians are also called Vexilla, I suppose it can be considered as an intentional parallel between Roman Empire and Lunar Empire.



    Existence of such regiments are a great advantage of Lunar Army against outside enemies. In "Under the Red Moon", the cult of Fereshor administered these special regiments, but it doesn't explain difference between Lares and guardians of other cultural Hero Bands.

    This topic is firmly related to next "order mix" item, but what I hesitate to count it as a common specialty of Lunar Army is that such regiments doesn't exist before Seleran War. (So mentioned in Imperial Lunar Handbook.)


  6. Order Mix (Military Tactics)

    Below is an idea from old article of Sandy Petersen's "The Art of War in the Western World","The Genertelan Art of War" and "The Army of the Lunar Empire". It might be revised by Martin Laurie or other glorantha military experts.

    As Sandy told us, an advantage of driving various type of soldiers effectively is not from Rome but Macedonian. And Lunar Empire has also such advantage to control many kind of infantry and cavalry troops with situations.

    Moreover in Glorantha, there is one more dimension aside from equipment/riding:magic. In Lunar Empire, vexilla mentioned before can be a conduit of magical variety of Theistic, Animistic and Wizardry force. In "King of Sartar", Argrath got such advantage by his special magical regiments like Eaglebrown (see "Masters of Luck and Death", it mixes Animism and Theism) and Elevenlights. It is another imitation attempt of Lunar superiority by Argrath as "Reaching Storm Temple".



  7. Leagues and Associations
    In late Roman Republic and early Empire, the relationship of clients and patrons is a sort of vertical axes of society. This relationship is herediary and exists aside from a frame of internal city republic system. The pinnacle of its activity was a fight between Marius and Sulla, illegal triumvirate among Caesar, Pompey and Crassus. Patrones must work for advantage of clients, and clients presented paying respects to his patrones.

    I assume this kind of mafia-style relations has certain similarity to Dara Happan "leagues", and associations might be parallel between the relation of Caesar and Pompey. While they had common enemy in Senatus, they are close friends. But after Caesar got great power in Gaul, Pompey turned against him, and the unity was lost.

    But in Lunar Empire, there is no selection for public office, such relation of Lunar Empire should have differnent aspect from Rome . See the article below about "Election".



  8. Grand Buildings
    As some Japanese gloranthaphiles pointed out, Lunar Empire might have experienced great structural change just during Seleran War. And I suppose such drastic change appeared between pre-war buildings and post-war buildings. Most of pre-Seleran buildings are destroyed by Jolati and Bursts, you might find difficulty of good examples except in Jillaro and a part of Daughter's Road not destroyed by Mitchuinni. I assume good parallel can be before and after of Great Barbarian Invasion of Roman Empire, but it might be denied by experts or Greg himself.


    After the mass destruction by Sheng Seleris, HonEel began the great reconstruction movement in Dara Happan cities with Greya "Bibliophile". (This story can be found in Greg's story, but I haven't read it yet.) I suppose many pelandan-style buildings are from that age for HonEel was from Doblian, it might be similar to Byzantine style which holds much influence from greek.

    Oh, wait. Realism of art is not a characteristic of Byzantine....I lost my point. Wait another Stafford Library.:)


  9. Bread and Circus
    In Roman Empire, elections for official services had patrones get popularity from city citizens by providing various amusement. After Punic War, a gap between the rich and the poor in urban area widened, higher caste had to appease poor people not losing voting right by providing food and entertainment without fee. Such movement is "Bread and Circus".

    Amphitheaters were built in many cities. Chariot races, duels of gladiators and imitation sea battle were held in such theaters. Even emperors showed themselves in such places and appealed their generosity and common interest to such affairs. (Known examples can be found in movies like "Gladiators")



    In Lunar Empire, public amusements like races for populace are provided in urban cities for another reason. In "Under the Red Moon", lower class people are led by demagogues as Radiance of Rufelza. (Maybe such tradition is derived from Nysalorian teaching that survived among lower class.) In bad time, they rose against upper classes, cried a "Want more, make me a duke" slogan in old Dara Happa.

    Among Masks of Red Emperors, Robustus drove such mobs to deprive noble classes wealth and privileges. gladatiatorial fights are held aside from more traditional games like Zasturnic and Oroginian that are led by Grevlar cult.

    Free food distribution is also held in Glamour as far as I read on the "Imperial Economy" article in "Four Scrolls of Revelation" by Martin Laurie. I don't know the reason why poor populace in Lunar Empire hold such power that is different from Roman Empire. IIRC, Harrek the Berserk was once a gladiator in Lunar Empire, but he is also an assassin of Dart War, his hostility to Lunars started at that time. He killed the Mask Ignifer.


  10. Other topics can be an episode of Mask Magnificus reminds me that of Emperor Hadrian, and Varro.




Different Points

  1. Monarchy
    Lunar Empire holds unity of religion and politics...it is different from secular principate system of early Roman Empire. (Of course, you might not think such comparison is important between magical Glorantha and non-magical real world...) In Roman Lingua Latina, "Imperator" simply means "leader of the army of Republic". (In Late Diocletian "Dominate" System of Rome, matter is different, emperors are considered holders of Divine Light, but it is from Persian Influence.)

    In ancient Dara Happan, emperor is "Ern Azali Baka Est Ja"..."Namer of Life and Death", It reminds me one of Dara Happan Myths. I assume it is rather Dara Happan ones are more likely priestly figure in a sense of babylonian "city king" tradition. Moreover, absolute monarchy reigns supreme as a representative of Sky Pantheon, it might be a ground for Greg's comment to Sassanoid Persia.


  2. No Sea
    There is no parallel "Mare Internum" controlled by Roman Empire, I can make a strained relativity to Keniriyan [White] Sea and Freshwater Sea with it, but these are known for coldness. Lunar Empire is not famous for a naval force.

    About Riverine Transportation, I suppose preceding cultures (like Babylonia or Egypt) before Rome is more appropriate parallels for Lunar Empire.


  3. Senatus
    As I mentioned in "costume:toga", Dara Happan Senatus began long after Imperial Monarchy had established, so the process of foundation is opposite to that of Roman one.


  4. Election
    In Rome, an apparent doctrine followed by a tacit consent was maintaining a semi-democractic exterior with an oligarchial senate as a city state. (On the contrary to the fact that it was monarchy with large provinces and colonies) As in the legend of foundation by Romulus and successors, Roman history began with the event excluding Tarquinius tyranny, citizens were allergic to any kind of monarchy.

    The opposite situation can be found at Dara Happan history, Emperors are let it to be in general. Moreover in my opinion, Dara Happan elapsed the historical stage of city states ruling hinterlands (I think such stage was the civic war in Erzanestyu-Denesiod dynasty). even Khordavu himself was not born in tripolis but a noble of Kostaddi. Cursus Honorum depicted as "Red Emperor" cult in "Tales of Reaching Moon #16" was rejected by Greg as unofficial, I assume greek-style citizenship is a quite alien concept to Lunar Empire and never developped in Glorantha.


  5. Radiances
    This word first appeared in "Under the Red Moon". This type of organization is labelled as "Radiances" which embodied the unity of religion and politics in Lunar Empire. I can't find any good parallel in Roman Empire. If I force myself, I can say it might be similar to christian churches during Byzantine Empire, which heavily reminding me of Wizardry Society. I am not sure enough about Greg's intention of mentioning about Sassanians, there is not enough historical sources for it as far as I know. (In Sassanian Persia, an unified church network of Zoroastrianism existed.)



  6. Anachronism and exaggerations
    What I can say is that Roman Empire images introduced by movies are not on historical facts. For example, roman soldiers didn't wear red mantles... for its dye was very expensive at that time, only high class officers like centurions afforded to wear it. (But in Lunar Empire, this problem is solved by some means.)

    Stirrups was not invented in the age of Roman Empire, maneuverability of cavalry forces are limited. But in Dara Happan Empire, after general Kastok (active in 560-580ST) spread its use, I suppose there is no cavalry without it. In this sense, Lunar Empire in technology progressed than Roman Empire.


  7. Population and size of territory
    Real world historians say the population of Roman Empire under Augustus' rule was around 45 millions, in the pinnacle of Empire under Five Good Emperors, it was around 65 millions. Under Constantine, it reduced to 55 millions.

    At 1621ST in Lunar Empire, the population is 8,430,000. It seems to be too small for parallel to the number above.

    About the size of territory, some (including Greg) claims the map scale is wrong and kilometers might be miles, and there is a good website for this topic (see Graham Robinson's Site), so let me leave it out,


  8. Local Authorities
    In Roman Empire, during great expansion period on the late republican and early principate period, provincial system remained. Generally speaking, promoted nobles and patricians must have taken office by election that is called Cursus Honorum. Highest positions were consuls and praetors. Most of them were dispatched as proconsuls and propraetors, overseeing one of Roman provinces without exceptions. It had terms of offices and of course not herediary. (Some historians considered such system let it be a hotbed of corruption, for they tried to make wealth during such short span of their office.)

    In Byzantine Empire, the circumstances were a bit different, In themata system of Heraclius Dynasty, each themes were permited a right of limited autonomy under strategos, herediary positions gradually tolerated. This situation is more similar to current 17C ST Lunar Empire. (In ancient Persian Empires similar trend (Central Power gradually fading) appeared in historical lines.)

    In 17C ST Lunar Empire, each of eight Sultanates (except Silver Shadow) holds office of Satraps that are herediary position of ruling clans. More acculately, their status title is Satrap (Carmanian style) or Sultan (Pentian style), but there is not enough information source for its historical change during 400 years of Lunar Empire.

    Centralization is in a sense a way to weaken local power to deal with trouble (like occasional raid from outsiders) when quick decision is required. Especially this is true that ancient world that doesn't have mean of communication with distance. So I'm not sure decentralization is a result or a cause of stablility. The clan listed below are all legitimated by Red Emperor after Seleran War except Sable Riders.

    Current Ruling Clans:

    EelAriash Clan: Ruling Clan of Oronin. Inheritance of HonEel. At 1543 ST (In FS, after 1547), Mask Robustus hesitately gave permission. The clan had feud with Mask Robustus but wasn't overthrown. (Tax Demon sent by Robustus was driven away.)

    JarEel "Fourth Inspiration of Moonson" was a result of this clan's hybridization. (Current Mask Argenteus will be killed by her.)

    ErrioUnit Clan: Ruling Clan of Sylila. At 1561, Mast Celestinus gave permission.

    MolariSor Clan: Ruling Clan of Oraya. Inheritance of Red Emperor. At 1527 ST (In FS, 1522ST), Mask Voracius permitted.

    RastariIning Clan:Ruling Clan of Karasal. They robbed Clan Varsedi the right at the Night of Horror of 1506. Feuding with Deneskerva (Great Sister) for various priveleges in the Satrapy.

    Sable (Tribe): Ruling Tribe(Clan) of Kostaddi. They had common inheritance with Praxian sable riders. In 2nd Wane Jannisor Rebellion, they converted to Lunar. At 1436, Red Emperor granted the right in 1436 for their persistent resistance against Sheng Seleris. They ruled the Satrapy ever since.

    TaranIl Clan: Ruling Clan of First Blessed. They robbed Clan JenetAror the right in 1527 under the permission of Mask Voracius. Inherited the Nypmh "Flower Poem".

    WylurOor Clan: Ruling Clan of Darjiin. Mask Robustus permitted the right in 1548. They claimed the inheritance of Blood from Darjiini hero Verondum. (Current Great Shamaness (Priestess) of SurEnslib, Beveletia is a lover of current Satrap.)

    YanoriaoIlart Clan: Ruling Clan of Doblian. In 1575, Mask Militaris permitted after the Dart War. There is possiblity with connection of VakthanIlart Clan for the name sake?


    Lost Right Clans (for some reason) or Extinct Clans.

    JenetAror Clan: Past Ruling Clan of First Blessed. Robbed by TaranIl, they assassinated Mask Voracius. Mask Venerabiris exterminated them. The high class prostitute Senthera brought them to ruin and later apotheosized as Lunar courtesan goddess.

    OyeraDan Clan: Past Ruling Clan of Oraya. Inherited HonEel. Robbed by MolariSor but survived as a denomination clan of HonEel Cult.

    VakthanIlart Clan: At First Wane, this clan was the Ruling Clan of Oronin. Clan Founder was a son of TakenEgi, Vakthan. They are active in Blood King's War. There is not known record for them after that.

    Varsedi Clan: Past Ruling Clan of Karasal. Decimated by the Night of Horror, Robbed by RastariIning Clan. Not known after that.

    Family of Hwarin Dalthippa (Unknown Clan Name): Still Strong in Sylila Satrapy.Unknown the connection to current Ruling Clan ErrioUnit.


  9. Provinces and Overseers
    As I mentioned in the article "Local Authorities" above, "overseer" position was a position for high-ranking officials to completing career before they got the title of Senator in Rome. This system was applied to most areas except important areas Emperors directly administrated by sending direct governers (like bread-basket Egypt),

    It isn't clear when first overseers appeared in Lunar Empire. Provincial Offices are positioned only in Kitor of Carmania and Mirin's Cross of Holay in current 17C, it can't be compared to that of Roman Empire.

    It doesn't clear before Seleran War, as far as I know in my limited source, first Provincial Overseer title was bestowed to "Onearm" Tarshite King Phargentes. (Term of Office:1555-1579ST) He abused this title and forced to Holay, Aggar and Balazar to cede territories. Originally Tarsh was strongest power among Provincial Kingdoms. In his reign, Furthest became one of the richest cities in Lunar Empire.

    Current South Provincial Office learned the lesson of Phargentes, it was positioned to Mirin's Cross of Holay. Current Overseer is Appius Luxius, born in Raibanth. He has held this office since 1586ST. (I don't know who was on this office in vacant 7 years.)

    Another Overseer is Palamtales of West Reaches. He was born as a son of poor Kostaddian.He was called "Eye of Padishah" in West Reaches. Known as a very shrewd person.

    Column: Changes of Historical Line:

    There isn't enough sources how the power of the title "Satrap" or "Sultan" has changed in Lunar Empire.

    What I can say is that in ancient Dara Happa, probably ruling men of Provinces are called "Overseer" (translated to English), this title is currently used as a title of agents of Emperor to South Barbarian Belt and old Carmanian Center.

    Their position is not herediary. (As you see in the example of Phargentes, it might be life-time.) Peter Metcalfe's "Glorantha: Introduction to Hero Wars" also used it as a title becoming a dead letter as a magistrate of rural hinterland of Peloria.
    In Fortunate Succession, Page 58 of Red Emperor's achievement. "Province" word can be found.

    This is a weak for an evidence. But there might be Provinces before Sheng Seleris, there is a possibility that current decentralization system might have begun after Seleran War, and that early Empire might be far more centralized under strong hands of original TakenEgi.